Another attack on moral subjectivism
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17-06-2015, 03:58 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(16-06-2015 06:24 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 04:57 PM)tear151 Wrote:  ...
so I put it to you, why don't you approve of so called immoral actions if there is nothing intrinsically wrong about them,
...

... because there is something contextually wrong about them.

Isn't that enough?

Wink

That's still a claim it's intrinsically wrong within that context. It's not enough it requires justification.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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17-06-2015, 04:00 AM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2015 04:09 AM by tear151.)
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(16-06-2015 07:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 07:48 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Well, stealing is wrong because you're taking time from someone else, and time is irreplaceable. You wouldn't want to have to work another 2400 hours for another automobile, so you take offense when someone inflicts that injury upon you.

It never ceases to amaze me how critics of moral relativity seem to think that humans don't have shared values. Talk about short-sighted.

But some people give away things. It's not immoral because it's "named" *stealing*. It's destructive because there is no mutual consent to the transfer. The same act could be moral, *if* it were mutually consensual. The *act* is the transfer. It could be either moral or immoral. There is nothing "objectively moral" about a transfer. It's the context that makes it one or the other.

Using rape as an example of moral objectivism is a fraud. The act in question is not rape, but *having sex*, which can be either moral or immoral.
Consensual sex is sometimes moral. Non-consensual sex is usually not because it causes pain and destroys community, not because it's objectively immoral.

Ok justify that it is immoral to cause pain and destroy communities, the actual X's and Y's I put into those statements were irrelevant to the point being made, you can keep justifying moral views by saying that the ideas behind it are wrong, but that's missing the point entirely

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17-06-2015, 05:42 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
@tear151

Are you seriously asking why it's immoral to cause pain, disruption and destruction in a community or even threaten community itself? If so, you will receive a very boring answer for me. Human are social animals. Every social animal has rules bounderies and limitations to its individual personnal freedom for the sake of better cooperation and enhanced survival rate of each individual and of course the group itself has a single entity. Morals are rules bounderies and limitations on which an animal gives an emotional charge based on personnal feelings. Causing pain makes you a threat to others which reduce their chance of survival and prosperity and will be met by an equal threat to yours.
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17-06-2015, 06:06 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(17-06-2015 03:58 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 06:24 PM)DLJ Wrote:  ... because there is something contextually wrong about them.

Isn't that enough?

Wink

That's still a claim it's intrinsically wrong within that context. It's not enough it requires justification.

It is enough, for me.

For any given ethical framework / governance system / axiology that defines right vs. wrong or good vs. bad, a given behavioural scenario can be identified as acceptable or not acceptable.

Why do you need more than that?

Blink

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17-06-2015, 06:07 AM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2015 06:13 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(17-06-2015 05:42 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Morals are rules bounderies and limitations on which an animal gives an emotional charge based on personnal feelings. Causing pain makes you a threat to others which reduce their chance of survival and prosperity and will be met by an equal threat to yours.

So morals are rules enforced by threats of retaliations and violence, or punishment of some sort?

If I were to avoid doing things solely out of fear of retaliation would that make me moral?
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17-06-2015, 06:13 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(17-06-2015 06:06 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 03:58 AM)tear151 Wrote:  That's still a claim it's intrinsically wrong within that context. It's not enough it requires justification.

It is enough, for me.

For any given ethical framework / governance system / axiology that defines right vs. wrong or good vs. bad, a given behavioural scenario can be identified as acceptable or not acceptable.

Why do you need more than that?

Blink

But when you say contextually wrong, would that mean that in a particular context something can be objectively wrong? If you claimed that in a particular context something is wrong, and someone said no in this particular context it would be right, would one of you be incorrect? Or are there no right or wrong answers even in a particular context?
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17-06-2015, 06:13 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(17-06-2015 04:00 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Ok justify that it is immoral to cause pain and destroy communities, the actual X's and Y's I put into those statements were irrelevant to the point being made, you can keep justifying moral views by saying that the ideas behind it are wrong, but that's missing the point entirely

YOU (unless you are insane, .... and you may be) expect others to respect you and avoid causing you pain, and YOU do not want YOUR community disrupted. Evolution built in "empathy" to us, (and many other critters).

What you expect for yourself, is reasonable to grant to others. No one has to "justify" anything.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-06-2015, 06:22 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(17-06-2015 06:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  YOU (unless you are insane, .... and you may be) expect others to respect you and avoid causing you pain, and YOU do not want YOUR community disrupted. Evolution built in "empathy" to us, (and many other critters).

What you expect for yourself, is reasonable to grant to others. No one has to "justify" anything.

If this were the case it wouldn't matter what I believe than right? Evolution "built" me in such away, than I'd just continue to act as a sort of "moist robot", where my chemistry pushes me to act in one way or the other, and I'm just sort of going along for the ride?

I'm curious when you look at humanity, historically and in the present, do you imagine man is overwhelming good. If evolution "built" us to be moral, to be empathetic, would you say our history shows that we're by in large, empathetic, and good creatures? For me, I would say man is more a creature of moral failing, more prone to indifference, and callous disregard, than empathy. If someone were to assess us as moral creatures, we'd likely receive a failing grade.
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17-06-2015, 06:30 AM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2015 06:35 AM by tear151.)
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(17-06-2015 06:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 04:00 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Ok justify that it is immoral to cause pain and destroy communities, the actual X's and Y's I put into those statements were irrelevant to the point being made, you can keep justifying moral views by saying that the ideas behind it are wrong, but that's missing the point entirely

YOU (unless you are insane, .... and you may be) expect others to respect you and avoid causing you pain, and YOU do not want YOUR community disrupted. Evolution built in "empathy" to us, (and many other critters).

What you expect for yourself, is reasonable to grant to others. No one has to "justify" anything.

If I can only have it for myself and not give it to others why is this a bad thing? Where does this owing what i want for myself to others come from? Calling me insane is a no true scotsman, you've implicitly stated that if i don't hold basic moral ideas then i am insane, i.e, not truly human and that is why I'm wrong. Perhaps I am (Though I doubt this greatly), but this is in no way relevant to what I'm saying.

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17-06-2015, 06:30 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(17-06-2015 06:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 06:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  YOU (unless you are insane, .... and you may be) expect others to respect you and avoid causing you pain, and YOU do not want YOUR community disrupted. Evolution built in "empathy" to us, (and many other critters).

What you expect for yourself, is reasonable to grant to others. No one has to "justify" anything.

If this were the case it wouldn't matter what I believe than right? Evolution "built" me in such away, than I'd just continue to act as a sort of "moist robot", where my chemistry pushes me to act in one way or the other, and I'm just sort of going along for the ride?

I'm curious when you look at humanity, historically and in the present, do you imagine man is overwhelming good. If evolution "built" us to be moral, to be empathetic, would you say our history shows that we're by in large, empathetic, and good creatures? For me, I would say man is more a creature of moral failing, more prone to indifference, and callous disregard, than empathy. If someone were to assess us as moral creatures, we'd likely receive a failing grade.

Sigh, No dear.
It's "then" right ?
Education and formation are part of the picture.
You think man is a creature of "moral failing" because you are indoctrinated by religion to think in those terms. You hang around the wrong people, AND you PROJECT your (religious bull) shit onto other people.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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