Another attack on moral subjectivism
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27-06-2015, 03:30 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:29 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 03:10 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So you believe that there are absolute rights and wrongs? And that rightness and wrongness are objectively true?
No, I don't believe in these things. Many people do though.

I think in order to make a judgement of right and wrong, a goal needs to be first articulated, then we can make a judgement as to whether an action takes us towards that goal or not.

So, who articulates these goals if not society?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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27-06-2015, 03:32 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:15 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That's why we have juries for some trials. "Murder is wrong*"
I don't see the judicial system as being in place to determine wrong from right.
The judicial system is to judge against adherence to the law and to resolve disputes and to remove dangers from society.
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27-06-2015, 03:33 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 03:15 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That's why we have juries for some trials. "Murder is wrong*"
I don't see the judicial system as being in place to determine wrong from right.
The judicial system is to judge against adherence to the law and to resolve disputes and to remove dangers from society.

All I was pointing out is that your black and white version of morality as right/wrong isn't true.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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27-06-2015, 03:34 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:30 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 03:29 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No, I don't believe in these things. Many people do though.

I think in order to make a judgement of right and wrong, a goal needs to be first articulated, then we can make a judgement as to whether an action takes us towards that goal or not.

So, who articulates these goals if not society?
Society isn't a person. It doesn't have a mind and it doesn't have a mouth, or a pen.
The government documents the law, this is clearly stated enforced, this is not morality.
Morality is undocumented and often un-enforced. Morality is a personal belief system, each individual gets to judge and react however they deem appropriate i.e. de-freinding, shaming, etc.
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27-06-2015, 03:36 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:34 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 03:30 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So, who articulates these goals if not society?
Society isn't a person. It doesn't have a mind and it doesn't have a mouth, or a pen.
The government documents the law, this is clearly stated enforced, this is not morality.
Morality is undocumented and often un-enforced. Morality is a personal belief system, each individual gets to judge and react however they deem appropriate i.e. de-freinding, shaming, etc.

I'm aware society isn't a person with a single mind. I got that. I've said that multiple times.

Communities of bees don't have a single mind to articulate explicit instructions for each individual to do. Social animals have evolved means of communication.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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27-06-2015, 03:36 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 03:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I don't see the judicial system as being in place to determine wrong from right.
The judicial system is to judge against adherence to the law and to resolve disputes and to remove dangers from society.

All I was pointing out is that your black and white version of morality as right/wrong isn't true.
I can't make sense of morality which is why I am a moral nihilist.
I think the core concept of distinction between right and wrong is fundamental to it though. I just can't make it work. Not given my current thinking.
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27-06-2015, 03:38 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 03:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  All I was pointing out is that your black and white version of morality as right/wrong isn't true.
I can't make sense of morality which is why I am a moral nihilist.
I think the core concept of distinction between right and wrong is fundamental to it though. I just can't make it work. Not given my current thinking.

That's because you look at morality incorrectly.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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27-06-2015, 03:55 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I can't make sense of morality which is why I am a moral nihilist.
I think the core concept of distinction between right and wrong is fundamental to it though. I just can't make it work. Not given my current thinking.

That's because you look at morality incorrectly.
That's your opinion.

My opinion is that I am looking at it correctly but you are looking at it in a vague and most likely inconsistent manner.

You keep making a claim that society has a morality, but then you also recognise that society doesn't have a collective mind and doesn't have a documented morality.

You also think the individual derives their own moral beliefs from the society, which doesn't have a belief system and hasn't documented a moral standard.

So I personally am really confused as to how an individual can derive their own morality beliefs from something that doesn't have a morality.
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27-06-2015, 04:01 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 03:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That's because you look at morality incorrectly.
That's your opinion.

My opinion is that I am looking at it correctly but you are looking at it in a vague and most likely inconsistent manner.

You keep making a claim that society has a morality, but then you also recognise that society doesn't have a collective mind and doesn't have a documented morality.

You also think the individual derives their own moral beliefs from the society, which doesn't have a belief system and hasn't documented a moral standard.

So I personally am really confused as to how an individual can derive their own morality beliefs from something that doesn't have a morality.

You can't make sense of morality, but you're convinced you're looking at it correctly?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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27-06-2015, 04:02 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(27-06-2015 03:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 03:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That's because you look at morality incorrectly.
That's your opinion.

My opinion is that I am looking at it correctly but you are looking at it in a vague and most likely inconsistent manner.

You keep making a claim that society has a morality, but then you also recognise that society doesn't have a collective mind and doesn't have a documented morality.

You also think the individual derives their own moral beliefs from the society, which doesn't have a belief system and hasn't documented a moral standard.

So I personally am really confused as to how an individual can derive their own morality beliefs from something that doesn't have a morality.

Ahhhhhhhh

No. I am not claiming "society has a morality."

Morality is derived FROM society.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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