Another attack on moral subjectivism
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28-06-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 05:49 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 11:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  In the context of society today, yes.

Truth simply doesn't work that way. America, for example, is overwhelmingly religious. Moral realism is not only consistent with religious beliefs, it's often a requirement to remain consistent with other religious beliefs. I think it's fair to say that most Americans probably believe it is objectively wrong to commit murder in cold blood. Does this mean that for the case of American society, that it is true that murder in cold blood is objectively wrong? That doesn't make any sense.

Of course that doesn't make any sense - no one is claiming that.

Quote: If that doesn't satisfy you, then how about a society where the majority believes that there is an alien spacecraft behind a comet that is passing by earth to come and pick up their souls. If a society believes that , does it mean that it's true for that society? Not hardly. How about a society who believes that the earth is flat?

"True" is not menaingful in the context.

Quote:We have to remember that every claim about the world (like "slavery is wrong" or "the earth is flat") is either true or false, and if it's not entirely true, then it's false. Whether or not we can know the truth value of certain claims is another debate, but we must acknowledge the fact that every claim is either true or false. There are no truths that are true for once society and false for another.

No, not every claim is either true or false. That is shallow and simplistic.

Quote:The claim "slavery is wrong" is not false because slavery is right, it's false because slavery can neither be right nor wrong.

Slavery can be generally wrong. Everything is right or wrong or neither only in context.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-06-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 06:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 04:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  He's been pretty clear. There is no 'ought' except that which the society requires.

And these oughts are not reducible to legal requirements?

You're not merely speaking of our legal obligations here?

If so, can you provide an example of an ought which society requires which is not a matter of legality? Are these non-legal oughts the sort that are enforced by means of human esteem?

Not all morality is embodied in law.

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28-06-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 06:37 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 04:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  You don't get a pass on calling it illusion. It is agreement, it is emotion, and it is evolved behavior - none of which are illusions.

So a belief that torturing babies just for the fun is objectively wrong (rather than subjectively wrong) , is not a false belief?

If it is a false belief, and an agreement nor an emotion, no an evolved behavior makes it true, why can't we call it an illusion?

Beliefs are judged right or wrong (or neither) in context. That the vast majority of people probably feel the torturing babies for fun is despicable doesn't make it objective.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-06-2015, 03:50 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 06:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 12:41 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I think you really are. And I think that's why this thread is a bit silly as it's founded on that assertion. Some people think so sure, but there are also a great many people who just talk in ways that are more definitive and not exactly clear in the way they actually understand or think of it.

No, I think Matt is right, society and civilizations the world over, believes that when something is said to be immoral, that it ought not to be done. The only people in which this would not be the case for, is for the handful of folks who subscribe to subjective morality, and the moral nihilist position. When the abolitionist, and the black folks behind civil rights movement, declared their wrongness of their treatment, and conditions, these believe where anchored in a sense that it was objectively wrong.

That objective sense, always lays behind pretty much every moral claim that gets passed around from time to time. Those who present morality in a different light, are a fairly small minority.

You view things like a child - it's not all black and white. Some actions are neither all right nor all wrong. The classic example is stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving children.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-06-2015, 03:52 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 03:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  Slavery can be generally wrong. Everything is right or wrong or neither only in context.

Can you explain a context in which slavery would be wrong? Or right?
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28-06-2015, 04:00 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 11:33 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(28-06-2015 10:50 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  The problem here again, is that you're taking a 'whole' claim..."Water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, and steel is made of cheese".... a single entity.
The claimS... 'water is made of hydrogen and oxygen' is true or false independent of 'steel is made of cheese' being true or false.

Do you agree that every claim is either true or false?

Are there some claims that are neither true nor false?

It's not about claims, it's about behaviors.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-06-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 03:52 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(28-06-2015 03:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  Slavery can be generally wrong. Everything is right or wrong or neither only in context.

Can you explain a context in which slavery would be wrong? Or right?

I find slavery repugnant, but aren't prisoners who are put to work slaves? Is that morally wrong?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-06-2015, 04:09 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 03:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  That the vast majority of people probably feel the torturing babies for fun is despicable doesn't make it objective.

The vast majority of people believe torturing babies just for fun is objectively wrong/immoral. This doesn't make it objective. If it's not objective we can say that their belief that it is objective is false. That's it's just an illusion.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-06-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 04:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-06-2015 03:52 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Can you explain a context in which slavery would be wrong? Or right?

I find slavery repugnant, but aren't prisoners who are put to work slaves? Is that morally wrong?

I don't believe that anything is morally wrong. I'm a moral nihilist.
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28-06-2015, 04:11 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(28-06-2015 03:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, not every claim is either true or false. That is shallow and simplistic.

It's true by definition. If you have a claim that is not true, it is false.

not true = false
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