Another attack on moral subjectivism
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29-06-2015, 04:25 PM (This post was last modified: 29-06-2015 04:33 PM by TheBeardedDude.)
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(29-06-2015 04:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-06-2015 01:58 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "A stranded person alone on a desert island can feel guilt from being lazy, from swimming all day rather than spending their time building shelter, finding fresh water, finding food etc.
They have no society, but they feel guilt for letting themself down. They believe that they "ought" to built shelter, but they can't be bothered. they consider their inactions to be immoral."


If you are saying that a person who is born and raised outside of a society will have a moral sense, please demonstrate that this is possible as I know of no such study or information that would support that assertion.

No, hard to do a study by taking a new born baby from its mother and isolating it on an island.
We can only ponder.
I'm not saying that a person "will have a moral sense" becasue I don't have a moral sense. I don't think a moral sense is mandatory for anyone.
I'm just highlighting that a person can feel moral guilt for letting themself down which is distict from the situation of letting down others in your personal sphere.
(29-06-2015 01:58 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're suggesting that something that is born from (or develops from) something can only exist as long as the thing it descended from exists. Hogwash.
No, I'm not saying that.
People can and do imagine things up all the time.
A primitive person can imagine that a volcano god is angry hence the volcano is errupting. They can imagine that they have displeased the volcano god and they can imagine a set of rights and wrongs that may please or displease this volcano god.
They then go about trying to please the imaginary volcano god, rather than trying to please other people within their society. They might even sacrifice some virgins (member's of their own society) in order to please the volcano god.
(29-06-2015 01:58 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  For instance, whether you recognize it or not, you have mannerisms and behaviors that you have acquired from both of your parents. It isn't like you'd stop walking a certain way or rolling your eyes a certain way if separated from them. And you would never have developed these parent-specific behaviors if you had not been raised by them and had instead been adopted by someone else.
Sure, I have some behavioural traits which are genetic, and some which are learned from my parents, some which are learned from my friends, some from media (tv, movies, books, internet...), some from philisophical ponderings.
Society has taught me nothing. Only certain people, certain media that I have experienced. This is a much smaller subset of society. Society isn't homogenous.
I currently have no moral beliefs.

(29-06-2015 02:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The first part I have a problem with. "A person with a desire to live within a society..." I am hung up here. If someone is raised within a society and then opts out, their moral compass has already been influenced/set by society.
If they have a set of moral beliefs then it has been influenced by the interactions this person has had with individuals and with media, as well as their own biological state, their own capability to deal with emotions and to interprete them, their own capability to philosopically examine and understand existence.
(29-06-2015 02:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "So some moral beliefs are dependant on there being a society."

You are still missing my point. Any belief you label as a moral belief, is derived from society and is society-dependent.
I disagree with this assertion. Society is a container, not a thinking thing.
If they have been influenced then they have been influenced by individuals that they have interacted with.
(29-06-2015 02:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Here, let me try and use an example that has been put out there before. "Is slavery wrong?"
...but would they even know that there are those who would consider them immoral if they had another human as a slave? Or would they be shamed if they knew others felt shame for masturbating?
Who knows how an individual comes up with their moral beliefs? I suppose it varies from person to person.
(29-06-2015 02:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Why would humans not living in a societal setting (or raised in one), develop moral senses/behaviors if there were no pressure from society to do so?
Because they can put pressure on themselves. They can be introspective.

(29-06-2015 03:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And the precursor interactions (altruistic behavior) provides the context for the development of the morals within a society.
I disagree with this. The ultimate context for development of moral beliefs is survival, mortality and competition for limited resource.

I don't understand your objections. They seem contradictory and I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over again.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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29-06-2015, 04:49 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(29-06-2015 04:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-06-2015 04:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Who knows how an individual comes up with their moral beliefs? I suppose it varies from person to person.
Because they can put pressure on themselves. They can be introspective.

I disagree with this. The ultimate context for development of moral beliefs is survival, mortality and competition for limited resource.

I don't understand your objections. They seem contradictory and I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over again.

that's because you're being circular.

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29-06-2015, 04:49 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(29-06-2015 04:49 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(29-06-2015 04:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't understand your objections. They seem contradictory and I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over again.

that's because you're being circular.

Explain.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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29-06-2015, 04:50 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(29-06-2015 03:05 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(29-06-2015 03:02 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Where did the first society get it's morals from.

How do you pinpoint a first society?

I have no clue, I'm just asking where the causation chain ends here.

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29-06-2015, 04:52 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(29-06-2015 04:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-06-2015 04:49 PM)tear151 Wrote:  that's because you're being circular.

Explain.

I ask you where people get morals from - society

I ask you where society gets them from - the interactions and instincts of people within the society

the only question I want to know the answer to is, what are the implications on an action being good and how does that differentiate from one that is bad, what are the properties that the judgments, you aren't being very clear.

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29-06-2015, 04:56 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(29-06-2015 04:52 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(29-06-2015 04:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Explain.

I ask you where people get morals from - society

I ask you where society gets them from - the interactions and instincts of people within the society

the only question I want to know the answer to is, what are the implications on an action being good and how does that differentiate from one that is bad, what are the properties that the judgments, you aren't being very clear.

I've said this many times. The. Society. Isn't. What. Has. The. Morals. Morals are derived FROM society.

It. Is. A. Social. Behavior. Of. Social. Animals. Interacting. In. A. Complex. Social. Setting.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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29-06-2015, 04:57 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
You think it's circular because you're straw manning my points.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-06-2015, 04:57 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(29-06-2015 04:50 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(29-06-2015 03:05 PM)pablo Wrote:  How do you pinpoint a first society?

I have no clue, I'm just asking where the causation chain ends here.

It's easy to explain if you don't try to inject a magical outside entity into the equation.
Societal morality evolved from individuals morals.
No outside source required.
Clean and simple.
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29-06-2015, 05:05 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(29-06-2015 04:57 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(29-06-2015 04:50 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I have no clue, I'm just asking where the causation chain ends here.

It's easy to explain if you don't try to inject a magical outside entity into the equation.
Societal morality evolved from individuals morals.
No outside source required.
Clean and simple.

I'd say that they evolved from ancestral social behaviors like altruism as opposed to calling it individual morals as I see that as emergent from society.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-06-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(29-06-2015 05:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-06-2015 04:57 PM)pablo Wrote:  It's easy to explain if you don't try to inject a magical outside entity into the equation.
Societal morality evolved from individuals morals.
No outside source required.
Clean and simple.

I'd say that they evolved from ancestral social behaviors like altruism as opposed to calling it individual morals as I see that as emergent from society.

Ok, just as likely.
My main point is that in either case, they did not come from somewhere outside of the society or the individuals.
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