Another damn lawyer ...
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07-12-2015, 06:54 PM
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
I have known some nice ones. Smile

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07-12-2015, 09:55 PM
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
Yay??

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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08-12-2015, 07:22 AM
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
(07-12-2015 01:31 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 12:56 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Great!

Of course, you know what William Shakespeare said about lawyers....

"First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

Uttered by Dick the Butcher in Henry The Sixth, Part 2 Act 4, scene 2, 71-78. Shakespeare was kinda weird sometimes though, wasn't he?

One of the most misused and misunderstood quotes of all times. In the actual context Shakespeare meant it as a praise of lawyer's role in the society.

Hmmm, only a lawyer could come up with that bit of sophistry. Dodgy

The following line is clearly anti-lawyer:
Dick the Butcher:
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
Jack Cade:
Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.

The line is clear and means precisely what it says, that lawyers are dangerous to a man's freedom.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-12-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
(08-12-2015 07:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 01:31 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  One of the most misused and misunderstood quotes of all times. In the actual context Shakespeare meant it as a praise of lawyer's role in the society.

The line is clear and means precisely what it says, that lawyers are dangerous to a man's freedom.

I don't think there's a clear consensus either way. Given who's saying the line, and to whom, it's a matter of how much irony one chooses to see in it.

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08-12-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
(08-12-2015 08:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 07:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  The line is clear and means precisely what it says, that lawyers are dangerous to a man's freedom.

I don't think there's a clear consensus either way. Given who's saying the line, and to whom, it's a matter of how much irony one chooses to see in it.

Given Shakespeare's clear penchant for using fools to speak the truth, I'd say it's quite clear.

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08-12-2015, 08:45 AM
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
(08-12-2015 08:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 08:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I don't think there's a clear consensus either way. Given who's saying the line, and to whom, it's a matter of how much irony one chooses to see in it.

Given Shakespeare's clear penchant for using fools to speak the truth, I'd say it's quite clear.

Well; and I'd say it's "quite clear" that it's the hyperbole of a demagogue.

Alas, now that we disagree over the "proper" interpretation of a line in an old book, I guess we'll have to excommunicate each other!

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08-12-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
(08-12-2015 08:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 08:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  Given Shakespeare's clear penchant for using fools to speak the truth, I'd say it's quite clear.

Well; and I'd say it's "quite clear" that it's the hyperbole of a demagogue.

Alas, now that we disagree over the "proper" interpretation of a line in an old book, I guess we'll have to excommunicate each other!

My point is that the claim that it is pro-lawyer is absurd.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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08-12-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
(08-12-2015 07:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 01:31 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  One of the most misused and misunderstood quotes of all times. In the actual context Shakespeare meant it as a praise of lawyer's role in the society.

Hmmm, only a lawyer could come up with that bit of sophistry. Dodgy

The following line is clearly anti-lawyer:
Dick the Butcher:
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
Jack Cade:
Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.

The line is clear and means precisely what it says, that lawyers are dangerous to a man's freedom.

The line itself is clearly anti lawyer , but it is important who said and why. Dick the Butcher sees the lawyers as an enemy to his cause , but his cause is to invoke chaos so they can seize power ( in an unlawful manner ) . So the lawyers are clearly portrayed as a power for maintaining order in the society.

Yes, there is no clear consensus about it, but you will find that most critics ( and of course lawyers Big Grin ) agree with this interpretation of the quote.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/17/nyregi...99990.html

http://www.spectacle.org/797/finkel.html

https://www.floridabar.org/divcom/jn/jnj...DB005D6229

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08-12-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
(08-12-2015 07:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 01:31 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  One of the most misused and misunderstood quotes of all times. In the actual context Shakespeare meant it as a praise of lawyer's role in the society.

Hmmm, only a lawyer could come up with that bit of sophistry. Dodgy

The following line is clearly anti-lawyer:
Dick the Butcher:
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
Jack Cade:
Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.

The line is clear and means precisely what it says, that lawyers are dangerous to a man's freedom.

Short answer: These are the villains of the play speaking. This is like assuming that Christopher Nolan is anti-establishment based on his authorship of Bane's thuggishly eloquent speeches in Batman Rises.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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08-12-2015, 10:28 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2015 10:38 AM by Chas.)
RE: Another damn lawyer ...
(08-12-2015 10:22 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 07:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  Hmmm, only a lawyer could come up with that bit of sophistry. Dodgy

The following line is clearly anti-lawyer:
Dick the Butcher:
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
Jack Cade:
Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.

The line is clear and means precisely what it says, that lawyers are dangerous to a man's freedom.

Short answer: These are the villains of the play speaking. This is like assuming that Christopher Nolan is anti-establishment based on his authorship of Bane's thuggishly eloquent speeches in Batman Rises.

It assumes nothing about the author, it is about the quote in context. And don't conflate the author's intent with the character's intent.

If you choose to interpret it as pro-lawyer, then when it is used that way the context would have to be carefully pointed out.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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