Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
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15-04-2013, 07:25 PM
RE: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
(15-04-2013 07:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 07:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're really going to go there too? Seriously? Those laws will be used to prosecute these assholes too.

Yes, but those laws, which are very clear and strong, did not prevent this.

No but it does make it an aberration where as gun violence is a near constant in this country. The number of bombings that happen are so few and far between that this is all the 24 hour news channels will talk about for the next several days where as the number of people killed by gun violence is so long that if say a group from newtown conn were to begin reading them at 1pm and kept reading them until they reached the end of the list they would have to stand vigil until 11 am the next morning. That of course happened and the list was the Children in newtown and every name from the time of the newtown tragedy until the time of the vigil that had been killed by gun violence. (it happened last week btw)

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

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15-04-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
(15-04-2013 07:22 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm not saying laws will prevent every event. Just like posted speed limits don't stop all speeders. But those that break the laws or make an effort to break them, can be held accountable.

All the police, the national guard and every gun they have between them didn't stop this either.

No argument with that.

More gun laws won't prevent another Columbine or Sandy Hook, either.

Better mental health and social services will address violence.

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15-04-2013, 07:42 PM
Re: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
Agreed, but just like with the laws for speeding and bombs, it will stop some, make it harder for others, and make it easier to slip-up and get caught.
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16-04-2013, 05:49 AM
Re: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
Ban BANS!
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16-04-2013, 06:07 AM
RE: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
I heard you guys wanted something banned? Drinking Beverage

Why is there a gun discussion at all? Which politicians are even trying to ban guns?
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16-04-2013, 07:36 AM
Re: RE: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
(15-04-2013 05:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That's the last time I ever let that son of a bitch get a response out of me.

No its not, politicians never let a tragedy go to waste and its always chipping away at your rights, be its 1st,2nd, 4th amendment, etc etc.

Patriot act anyone?
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16-04-2013, 09:00 AM
RE: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
(15-04-2013 07:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 07:22 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm not saying laws will prevent every event. Just like posted speed limits don't stop all speeders. But those that break the laws or make an effort to break them, can be held accountable.

All the police, the national guard and every gun they have between them didn't stop this either.

No argument with that.

More gun laws won't prevent another Columbine or Sandy Hook, either.

Better mental health and social services will address violence.

That is the most basic truth. Our mental health care in this country is horrible. It doesn't even pass for good.


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16-04-2013, 09:00 AM
RE: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
As long as the focus remains on what people do rather than why they do it, no amount of legislation will resolve these problems.

And there are opportunity costs and unintended consequences to all legislation, so the perceived benefits of a law are just that, perceived.

For instance, a man who is charged with a felony for a victimless crime cannot own a forearm. That same man could be the victim of a home invasion and if he were armed, he'd have a much better chance of defending himself. But since he can't possess a firearm, he may well be killed by the perpetrator of a crime with an actual victim, simply because a paranoid law denied him the right to own a device that could save his life and property.

Likewise, a man whom I know was convicted at 19, of attempting to meet a 17 year old girl through the internet. The "girl" was an undercover cop and for the rest of his life he must register as a sex offender. The unintended consequence and opportunity costs to his victimless crime are that he is now unable to work at his profession due to the stigma that sex offender registry brings. In the end, he could very well end up on the welfare rolls for the rest of his life. So not only will his life be destroyed, he will also likely be a further burden to the welfare system simply because he was interested in having sex with a girl who was almost his same age. Factor in the costs of pursuing him and prosecuting his victimless crime and the cost is shown to be even greater.

In the end, there is no way to calculate the numbers of or the monetary costs of such incidents but they do indeed happen and they happen to real human beings.

Knowing all this, I can't help but wonder if people are truly interested in creating a net positive benefit for society or if they're simply interested in revenge.

I suspect the latter and, evidence supports my suspicion.

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16-04-2013, 09:00 AM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2013 09:40 AM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
Not good enough to be said twice...


Sorry editing out the double posting...


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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16-04-2013, 09:12 AM
RE: Another example of BS statistics and Strawmen, in the guns debate
(16-04-2013 09:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  As long as the focus remains on what people do rather than why they do it, no amount of legislation will resolve these problems.

And there are opportunity costs and unintended consequences to all legislation, so the perceived benefits of a law are just that, perceived.

For instance, a man who is charged with a felony for a victimless crime cannot own a forearm. That same man could be the victim of a home invasion and if he were armed, he'd have a much better chance of defending himself. But since he can't possess a firearm, he may well be killed by the perpetrator of a crime with an actual victim, simply because a paranoid law denied him the right to own a device that could save his life and property.

Likewise, a man whom I know was convicted at 19, of attempting to meet a 17 year old girl through the internet. The "girl" was an undercover cop and for the rest of his life he must register as a sex offender. The unintended consequence and opportunity costs to his victimless crime are that he is now unable to work at his profession due to the stigma that sex offender registry brings. In the end, he could very well end up on the welfare rolls for the rest of his life. So not only will his life be destroyed, he will also likely be a further burden to the welfare system simply because he was interested in having sex with a girl who was almost his same age. Factor in the costs of pursuing him and prosecuting his victimless crime and the cost is shown to be even greater.

In the end, there is no way to calculate the numbers of or the monetary costs of such incidents but they do indeed happen and they happen to real human beings.

Knowing all this, I can't help but wonder if people are truly interested in creating a net positive benefit for society or if they're simply interested in revenge.

I suspect the latter and, evidence supports my suspicion.

I agree on learning why people do these things, that is one of the best points to raise against the death penalty and/or just throwing them in a hole without a key. These people need to be studied, so that a similar person in the future, might be recognized early enough so as to prevent them from doing harm. Or even better, helping them so that they never develop into that sociopath.

But the issue is not just who, but also the what. Defining laws around people and the objects which they may use for harm, is also worth doing. If it deters even 1 sociopath, if it causes even 1 to slip-up and get caught, it it prevents even 1 death, then it is worth it in my book.

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