Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
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09-09-2014, 12:09 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:03 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 08:59 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  While I don't care about women in video games (In fact I find most of the costumes quite amusing...have you seen Ivy? I mean seriously LOL) I certainly understand the complaints that some women have. Not because the women in the games are prettier than me (I am no video game girl) but because feminists are right about some of the things they say.

Also seeing how most pretty girls look that way because they are constantly moving and working out as well. Only objection I see is the fact they are not dirtier in some games.

Right.....

I honestly am starting to think you're a bit of a troll on this topic.
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09-09-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 11:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ok hear me out cause I am going to go deep here, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Outfits are a symptom of the problem not the problem itself. They do slightly marginalise female characters but if that was all there was then I doubt there would be the issue there is in gamer culture. The big problem in gaming, more so than any other single issue is the use of Girl as prize. You just saved the kingdom you win some pussy. Real life does not work like that yet we have trained an entire generation of boys that this is how it should be.

The rise of the "friendzone" bullshit shows that a common sentiment is if you are a nice human being you deserve any woman you want regardless of her feelings. The sense of entitlement a lot of young men have is staggering, brought about by some well meaning but horrible advice such as just be yourself. You know what sometimes you do have to conform to get along with people. If you being yourself is unbathed and out of shape then guess what girls are not going to want to hang around with you. Yet their whole lives these kids have been told that be yourself and you will get ahead, be a nice guy and they will love you. The problem with all this is the fact that it dehumanises women. They are prizes for participation. So when in real life this backfires and your "crush" wont notice you it must be because she is a bitch and feminism is poisoning society and anger and pain.

This is a major issue right now and it has painted a very distinct US vs Them attitude that is incredibly unhealthy. This is why videogames are important. This is why this discussion needs to take place. I don't blame these poor kids for being confused they were sent mixed messages their entire life. But at some point they have to accept that reality is not the package they have been sold and move on. If we change the culture inside of games themselves to more accurately reflect what real life is like when dealing with women then maybe we will see some improvement on this front.

Well said, however ...

To the matter of video games: who do you think authors these games for what audience? Consider

Bingo! Primarily young men. So, yes, they largely exhibit the attitudes of that demographic.

I agree however we may have a chicken or the egg situation here. I don't mean to imply that video games created this issue but they have helped to perpetuate it. Women as property is an old old custom and a woman as a prize is ingrained deep in our culture. However by perpetuating this they do a disservice to not only women but the boys who play theses games.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-09-2014, 12:30 PM
AW: RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 09:45 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  In all frankness, I disagree with some feminist rhetoric. I don't think that because a female in a game is simply attractive or showing a lot of skin means that it is sexist or oppressive. Likewise, some cases presented from Anita Sarkessian are dishonest or misleading, like saying Hitman is a game with the objective of taking out strippers with no reason.

Ok hear me out cause I am going to go deep here, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Outfits are a symptom of the problem not the problem itself. They do slightly marginalise female characters but if that was all there was then I doubt there would be the issue there is in gamer culture. The big problem in gaming, more so than any other single issue is the use of Girl as prize. You just saved the kingdom you win some pussy. Real life does not work like that yet we have trained an entire generation of boys that this is how it should be.

The rise of the "friendzone" bullshit shows that a common sentiment is if you are a nice human being you deserve any woman you want regardless of her feelings. The sense of entitlement a lot of young men have is staggering, brought about by some well meaning but horrible advice such as just be yourself. You know what sometimes you do have to conform to get along with people. If you being yourself is unbathed and out of shape then guess what girls are not going to want to hang around with you. Yet their whole lives these kids have been told that be yourself and you will get ahead, be a nice guy and they will love you. The problem with all this is the fact that it dehumanises women. They are prizes for participation. So when in real life this backfires and your "crush" wont notice you it must be because she is a bitch and feminism is poisoning society and anger and pain.

This is a major issue right now and it has painted a very distinct US vs Them attitude that is incredibly unhealthy. This is why videogames are important. This is why this discussion needs to take place. I don't blame these poor kids for being confused they were sent mixed messages their entire life. But at some point they have to accept that reality is not the package they have been sold and move on. If we change the culture inside of games themselves to more accurately reflect what real life is like when dealing with women then maybe we will see some improvement on this front.
Yeah, that sounds absolutely retarded. What evidence is there that these people got these ideas from video games? Facepalm

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09-09-2014, 12:32 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ok hear me out cause I am going to go deep here, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Outfits are a symptom of the problem not the problem itself. They do slightly marginalise female characters but if that was all there was then I doubt there would be the issue there is in gamer culture. The big problem in gaming, more so than any other single issue is the use of Girl as prize. You just saved the kingdom you win some pussy. Real life does not work like that yet we have trained an entire generation of boys that this is how it should be.

The rise of the "friendzone" bullshit shows that a common sentiment is if you are a nice human being you deserve any woman you want regardless of her feelings. The sense of entitlement a lot of young men have is staggering, brought about by some well meaning but horrible advice such as just be yourself. You know what sometimes you do have to conform to get along with people. If you being yourself is unbathed and out of shape then guess what girls are not going to want to hang around with you. Yet their whole lives these kids have been told that be yourself and you will get ahead, be a nice guy and they will love you. The problem with all this is the fact that it dehumanises women. They are prizes for participation. So when in real life this backfires and your "crush" wont notice you it must be because she is a bitch and feminism is poisoning society and anger and pain.

This is a major issue right now and it has painted a very distinct US vs Them attitude that is incredibly unhealthy. This is why videogames are important. This is why this discussion needs to take place. I don't blame these poor kids for being confused they were sent mixed messages their entire life. But at some point they have to accept that reality is not the package they have been sold and move on. If we change the culture inside of games themselves to more accurately reflect what real life is like when dealing with women then maybe we will see some improvement on this front.
Yeah, that sounds absolutely retarded. What evidence is there that these people got these ideas from video games? Facepalm


The fact that it is omnipresent in videogames for a start.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-09-2014, 12:35 PM
AW: RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Yeah, that sounds absolutely retarded. What evidence is there that these people got these ideas from video games? Facepalm


The fact that it is omnipresent in videogames for a start.
That doesn't support your position, like, at all. Is the omnipresence of murder as a-okay in video games evidence that people are okay with murder in real life?

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09-09-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 11:51 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(08-09-2014 05:21 PM)Antonis Wrote:  I am sorry to misinterpret your intention i was under a lot of attacks before in this thread, it was my fault too because i wasn't clear in my post about my beliefs
No worries.

(08-09-2014 05:21 PM)Antonis Wrote:  This post let me see your point more clearly this time. I was talking about the first category of people that misunderstand the real meaning of feminism, this people won't spend time to search and understand what feminism really is trying to achieve so a friendlier name maybe will make the movement more appealing to the masses.
The problem with this group of people is a change in terms is unlikely to accomplish anything. By your own description, they won't spend time to search and understand what it is all about so we can expect the same behavior even if you change the term to something besides feminism. I don't see how a term that can't be mistaken as "this is an organization for females" would somehow magically bringing motivation to those people.

Discussing this with you i came to realise that maybe even if does make a difference something doubtfull, maybe it must not change, feminism is a stronger word. By using euphemism to cover up the organization it won't help much. Thank you for helping me to see this.
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09-09-2014, 12:41 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 12:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The fact that it is omnipresent in videogames for a start.
That doesn't support your position, like, at all. Is the omnipresence of murder as a-okay in video games evidence that people are okay with murder in real life?

It does desensitize people to real violence. Are you saying that they have no effect at all?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-09-2014, 12:46 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 09:45 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  In all frankness, I disagree with some feminist rhetoric. I don't think that because a female in a game is simply attractive or showing a lot of skin means that it is sexist or oppressive. Likewise, some cases presented from Anita Sarkessian are dishonest or misleading, like saying Hitman is a game with the objective of taking out strippers with no reason.

Ok hear me out cause I am going to go deep here, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Outfits are a symptom of the problem not the problem itself. They do slightly marginalise female characters but if that was all there was then I doubt there would be the issue there is in gamer culture. The big problem in gaming, more so than any other single issue is the use of Girl as prize. You just saved the kingdom you win some pussy. Real life does not work like that yet we have trained an entire generation of boys that this is how it should be.

The rise of the "friendzone" bullshit shows that a common sentiment is if you are a nice human being you deserve any woman you want regardless of her feelings. The sense of entitlement a lot of young men have is staggering, brought about by some well meaning but horrible advice such as just be yourself. You know what sometimes you do have to conform to get along with people. If you being yourself is unbathed and out of shape then guess what girls are not going to want to hang around with you. Yet their whole lives these kids have been told that be yourself and you will get ahead, be a nice guy and they will love you. The problem with all this is the fact that it dehumanises women. They are prizes for participation. So when in real life this backfires and your "crush" wont notice you it must be because she is a bitch and feminism is poisoning society and anger and pain.

This is a major issue right now and it has painted a very distinct US vs Them attitude that is incredibly unhealthy. This is why videogames are important. This is why this discussion needs to take place. I don't blame these poor kids for being confused they were sent mixed messages their entire life. But at some point they have to accept that reality is not the package they have been sold and move on. If we change the culture inside of games themselves to more accurately reflect what real life is like when dealing with women then maybe we will see some improvement on this front.


One question personally i haven't played so many games making women a prize, damsel in distress yes but not prize for male characters, i am not denying your claim i just want you to give some examples of modern games like this. Oh and nice sum up of the friendzone bullshit there.
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09-09-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 09:45 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  In all frankness, I disagree with some feminist rhetoric. I don't think that because a female in a game is simply attractive or showing a lot of skin means that it is sexist or oppressive. Likewise, some cases presented from Anita Sarkessian are dishonest or misleading, like saying Hitman is a game with the objective of taking out strippers with no reason.

Ok hear me out cause I am going to go deep here, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Outfits are a symptom of the problem not the problem itself. They do slightly marginalise female characters but if that was all there was then I doubt there would be the issue there is in gamer culture. The big problem in gaming, more so than any other single issue is the use of Girl as prize. You just saved the kingdom you win some pussy. Real life does not work like that yet we have trained an entire generation of boys that this is how it should be.

The rise of the "friendzone" bullshit shows that a common sentiment is if you are a nice human being you deserve any woman you want regardless of her feelings. The sense of entitlement a lot of young men have is staggering, brought about by some well meaning but horrible advice such as just be yourself. You know what sometimes you do have to conform to get along with people. If you being yourself is unbathed and out of shape then guess what girls are not going to want to hang around with you. Yet their whole lives these kids have been told that be yourself and you will get ahead, be a nice guy and they will love you. The problem with all this is the fact that it dehumanises women. They are prizes for participation. So when in real life this backfires and your "crush" wont notice you it must be because she is a bitch and feminism is poisoning society and anger and pain.

This is a major issue right now and it has painted a very distinct US vs Them attitude that is incredibly unhealthy. This is why videogames are important. This is why this discussion needs to take place. I don't blame these poor kids for being confused they were sent mixed messages their entire life. But at some point they have to accept that reality is not the package they have been sold and move on. If we change the culture inside of games themselves to more accurately reflect what real life is like when dealing with women then maybe we will see some improvement on this front.

Indeed.

The cultural ideas in video games are not new. Not by a light year. Pointing them out in any other cultural sphere would be a formulaic Gender Studies 101 paper. Somehow pointing out these things with respect to video games gets one rape and death threats. No, I'm not quite sure how that follows either.

Fun example: Die Hard. Classic movie - but remember at the beginning how Bruce Willis's character is having a rough spot in his marriage? And then at the end how after he's killed enough terrorists his wife loves him again?

Fun example #2: a lot of visual novels are even more explicit with the whole "push button, receive sex" thing (LOL EXPLICIT, GET IT?). And the medium is the message, as they say. Hell, look at Bioware's games. Even if the player data didn't show that most people played a grizzled brown-haired white dude as protagonist... the exact same mechanic is in place. And that would be slightly problematic regardless.
(plus, remember the death threats they got when the put "teh gays" into their games?)

Thing is, if you take something people identify really strongly with (let's say - oh, random example here - video games) and point out some entry-level criticism, people take it personally even though they shouldn't, and that helps nothing along.

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09-09-2014, 12:49 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 09:45 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  In all frankness, I disagree with some feminist rhetoric. I don't think that because a female in a game is simply attractive or showing a lot of skin means that it is sexist or oppressive. Likewise, some cases presented from Anita Sarkessian are dishonest or misleading, like saying Hitman is a game with the objective of taking out strippers with no reason.

Ok hear me out cause I am going to go deep here, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Outfits are a symptom of the problem not the problem itself. They do slightly marginalise female characters but if that was all there was then I doubt there would be the issue there is in gamer culture. The big problem in gaming, more so than any other single issue is the use of Girl as prize. You just saved the kingdom you win some pussy. Real life does not work like that yet we have trained an entire generation of boys that this is how it should be.

The rise of the "friendzone" bullshit shows that a common sentiment is if you are a nice human being you deserve any woman you want regardless of her feelings. The sense of entitlement a lot of young men have is staggering, brought about by some well meaning but horrible advice such as just be yourself. You know what sometimes you do have to conform to get along with people. If you being yourself is unbathed and out of shape then guess what girls are not going to want to hang around with you. Yet their whole lives these kids have been told that be yourself and you will get ahead, be a nice guy and they will love you. The problem with all this is the fact that it dehumanises women. They are prizes for participation. So when in real life this backfires and your "crush" wont notice you it must be because she is a bitch and feminism is poisoning society and anger and pain.

This is a major issue right now and it has painted a very distinct US vs Them attitude that is incredibly unhealthy. This is why videogames are important. This is why this discussion needs to take place. I don't blame these poor kids for being confused they were sent mixed messages their entire life. But at some point they have to accept that reality is not the package they have been sold and move on. If we change the culture inside of games themselves to more accurately reflect what real life is like when dealing with women then maybe we will see some improvement on this front.

Are you saying here that women are end game sexual prizes? I disagree mainly because games mostly don't explicitly (or even implicitly) have sex as the end goal. Like rescuing the princess in Mario, I don't think there was any intention of the player having sex with Peach, nor would I think Nintendo is implying it as they are a family company. In Mario Bros games, the princess being captured trope is employed as an emotional motivation to get through the game. Even then, I'm doubtful that's always on people's minds as they play the game as beating the challenge is more of the main focus of the game.

That being said, I do understand that there IS sex as the main (and sometimes only) goal in a game. There are some date sims and RPGs where sex is sometimes the end goal. Though many popular games in the past have had it where you could be a man or you could be a woman and partner up with man/woman/alien/robots and have sex. The Mass Effect series and Star Wars KOTOR series is brought to mind. And there are games where you can only be a man and there are sex side quests, like the infamous sex scenes in God of War.

My point being is that I don't see that there is something wrong with virtual men as the main playable character in video games being able to have consensual sex with virtual women. Does it sometimes paint an inaccurate depiction of how the real world works? Yes. Can it potentially give a wrong impression of how reality works? If someone confuses video games, a tool of escapism, for reality, sure. That is a big 'if' though. It's the sort of thing that critics like Jack Thompson has banked on as being true. I would think changing people's minds through sexual education instead of changing video games would be more productive.
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