Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
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09-09-2014, 12:53 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 12:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  That doesn't support your position, like, at all. Is the omnipresence of murder as a-okay in video games evidence that people are okay with murder in real life?

It does desensitize people to real violence. Are you saying that they have no effect at all?

There is no good long-term research regarding effects of media exposure. That could be modes of advertising, or narrative tropes, or whatever.
(because, seriously, that shit is impossible to run controls for; but we might also note that given the degree to which people generally think other things work "like in the movies" - be it animals or guns or police work or surgery - it would be rather exceptional if presentations of people and relationships were exempt from such feedback...)

So yeah, "it [media portrayals] has no effect at all" is one truly bold null hypothesis to endorse.

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09-09-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:49 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ok hear me out cause I am going to go deep here, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Outfits are a symptom of the problem not the problem itself. They do slightly marginalise female characters but if that was all there was then I doubt there would be the issue there is in gamer culture. The big problem in gaming, more so than any other single issue is the use of Girl as prize. You just saved the kingdom you win some pussy. Real life does not work like that yet we have trained an entire generation of boys that this is how it should be.

The rise of the "friendzone" bullshit shows that a common sentiment is if you are a nice human being you deserve any woman you want regardless of her feelings. The sense of entitlement a lot of young men have is staggering, brought about by some well meaning but horrible advice such as just be yourself. You know what sometimes you do have to conform to get along with people. If you being yourself is unbathed and out of shape then guess what girls are not going to want to hang around with you. Yet their whole lives these kids have been told that be yourself and you will get ahead, be a nice guy and they will love you. The problem with all this is the fact that it dehumanises women. They are prizes for participation. So when in real life this backfires and your "crush" wont notice you it must be because she is a bitch and feminism is poisoning society and anger and pain.

This is a major issue right now and it has painted a very distinct US vs Them attitude that is incredibly unhealthy. This is why videogames are important. This is why this discussion needs to take place. I don't blame these poor kids for being confused they were sent mixed messages their entire life. But at some point they have to accept that reality is not the package they have been sold and move on. If we change the culture inside of games themselves to more accurately reflect what real life is like when dealing with women then maybe we will see some improvement on this front.

Are you saying here that women are end game sexual prizes? I disagree mainly because games mostly don't explicitly (or even implicitly) have sex as the end goal. Like rescuing the princess in Mario, I don't think there was any intention of the player having sex with Peach, nor would I think Nintendo is implying it as they are a family company. In Mario Bros games, the princess being captured trope is employed as an emotional motivation to get through the game. Even then, I'm doubtful that's always on people's minds as they play the game as beating the challenge is more of the main focus of the game.

That being said, I do understand that there IS sex as the main (and sometimes only) goal in a game. There are some date sims and RPGs where sex is sometimes the end goal. Though many popular games in the past have had it where you could be a man or you could be a woman and partner up with man/woman/alien/robots and have sex. The Mass Effect series and Star Wars KOTOR series is brought to mind. And there are games where you can only be a man and there are sex side quests, like the infamous sex scenes in God of War.

My point being is that I don't see that there is something wrong with virtual men as the main playable character in video games being able to have consensual sex with virtual women. Does it sometimes paint an inaccurate depiction of how the real world works? Yes. Can it potentially give a wrong impression of how reality works? If someone confuses video games, a tool of escapism, for reality, sure. That is a big 'if' though. It's the sort of thing that critics like Jack Thompson has banked on as being true. I would think changing people's minds through sexual education instead of changing video games would be more productive.

cjlr's post above yours does a wonderful breakdown of most of the questions here.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-09-2014, 12:55 PM
AW: RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 12:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  That doesn't support your position, like, at all. Is the omnipresence of murder as a-okay in video games evidence that people are okay with murder in real life?

It does desensitize people to real violence. Are you saying that they have no effect at all?
No, I'm not saying that. I'm skeptical of the views that you have voiced so far, namely that video games not only shape the views of people on real life situations (e.g. relationships) in significant ways, but that they are also representative of the views of their target demographic. You have yet to present any hard data to substantiate these views; it seems to me like they amount to nothing more than speculation. It's not just that, though. As per my previous post, the absurdity of your argument's conclusion becomes clear when you look at many other prevalent themes in video games that don't correspond to the views of people in real life. This whole thing reeks of the media's scape-goating when blaming video games for school shootings.

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09-09-2014, 12:57 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:49 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ok hear me out cause I am going to go deep here, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Outfits are a symptom of the problem not the problem itself. They do slightly marginalise female characters but if that was all there was then I doubt there would be the issue there is in gamer culture. The big problem in gaming, more so than any other single issue is the use of Girl as prize. You just saved the kingdom you win some pussy. Real life does not work like that yet we have trained an entire generation of boys that this is how it should be.

The rise of the "friendzone" bullshit shows that a common sentiment is if you are a nice human being you deserve any woman you want regardless of her feelings. The sense of entitlement a lot of young men have is staggering, brought about by some well meaning but horrible advice such as just be yourself. You know what sometimes you do have to conform to get along with people. If you being yourself is unbathed and out of shape then guess what girls are not going to want to hang around with you. Yet their whole lives these kids have been told that be yourself and you will get ahead, be a nice guy and they will love you. The problem with all this is the fact that it dehumanises women. They are prizes for participation. So when in real life this backfires and your "crush" wont notice you it must be because she is a bitch and feminism is poisoning society and anger and pain.

This is a major issue right now and it has painted a very distinct US vs Them attitude that is incredibly unhealthy. This is why videogames are important. This is why this discussion needs to take place. I don't blame these poor kids for being confused they were sent mixed messages their entire life. But at some point they have to accept that reality is not the package they have been sold and move on. If we change the culture inside of games themselves to more accurately reflect what real life is like when dealing with women then maybe we will see some improvement on this front.

Are you saying here that women are end game sexual prizes? I disagree mainly because games mostly don't explicitly (or even implicitly) have sex as the end goal. Like rescuing the princess in Mario, I don't think there was any intention of the player having sex with Peach, nor would I think Nintendo is implying it as they are a family company. In Mario Bros games, the princess being captured trope is employed as an emotional motivation to get through the game. Even then, I'm doubtful that's always on people's minds as they play the game as beating the challenge is more of the main focus of the game.

That being said, I do understand that there IS sex as the main (and sometimes only) goal in a game. There are some date sims and RPGs where sex is sometimes the end goal. Though many popular games in the past have had it where you could be a man or you could be a woman and partner up with man/woman/alien/robots and have sex. The Mass Effect series and Star Wars KOTOR series is brought to mind. And there are games where you can only be a man and there are sex side quests, like the infamous sex scenes in God of War.

My point being is that I don't see that there is something wrong with virtual men as the main playable character in video games being able to have consensual sex with virtual women. Does it sometimes paint an inaccurate depiction of how the real world works? Yes. Can it potentially give a wrong impression of how reality works? If someone confuses video games, a tool of escapism, for reality, sure. That is a big 'if' though. It's the sort of thing that critics like Jack Thompson has banked on as being true. I would think changing people's minds through sexual education instead of changing video games would be more productive.


Mass effect endgame is not to have sex they are erotica subplot that you can chase if you want also you can do it as a woman. Kratos in god of war is a psychopath that in the end left no one alive on earth the fact that he have one sex scence in every game give an false impression of reality. but your point about sexual education was spot on well done!
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09-09-2014, 12:58 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 11:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ok hear me out cause I am going to go deep here, this is not directed at anyone in particular here. Outfits are a symptom of the problem not the problem itself. They do slightly marginalise female characters but if that was all there was then I doubt there would be the issue there is in gamer culture. The big problem in gaming, more so than any other single issue is the use of Girl as prize. You just saved the kingdom you win some pussy. Real life does not work like that yet we have trained an entire generation of boys that this is how it should be.

The rise of the "friendzone" bullshit shows that a common sentiment is if you are a nice human being you deserve any woman you want regardless of her feelings. The sense of entitlement a lot of young men have is staggering, brought about by some well meaning but horrible advice such as just be yourself. You know what sometimes you do have to conform to get along with people. If you being yourself is unbathed and out of shape then guess what girls are not going to want to hang around with you. Yet their whole lives these kids have been told that be yourself and you will get ahead, be a nice guy and they will love you. The problem with all this is the fact that it dehumanises women. They are prizes for participation. So when in real life this backfires and your "crush" wont notice you it must be because she is a bitch and feminism is poisoning society and anger and pain.

This is a major issue right now and it has painted a very distinct US vs Them attitude that is incredibly unhealthy. This is why videogames are important. This is why this discussion needs to take place. I don't blame these poor kids for being confused they were sent mixed messages their entire life. But at some point they have to accept that reality is not the package they have been sold and move on. If we change the culture inside of games themselves to more accurately reflect what real life is like when dealing with women then maybe we will see some improvement on this front.

Well said, however ...

To the matter of video games: who do you think authors these games for what audience? Consider

Bingo! Primarily young men. So, yes, they largely exhibit the attitudes of that demographic.

I won't argue that this wasn't their purpose, however, while their motivations where rational, that doesn't make them excusable. In terms of what video games should be, the "but most gamers are boys" argument is non sequitor (and increasingly inaccurate besides).
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09-09-2014, 01:02 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 12:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It does desensitize people to real violence. Are you saying that they have no effect at all?
No, I'm not saying that. I'm skeptical of the views that you have voiced so far, namely that video games not only shape the views of people on real life situations (e.g. relationships) in significant ways, but that they are also representative of the views of their target demographic. You have yet to present any hard data to substantiate these views; it seems to me like they amount to nothing more than speculation. It's not just that, though. As per my previous post, the absurdity of your argument's conclusion becomes clear when you look at many other prevalent themes in video games that don't correspond to the views of people in real life. This whole thing reeks of the media's scape-goating when blaming video games for school shootings.

I agree with you that, in terms of well measured impacts of video games on sexism in our culture, there isn't sufficient data to support any claim. If anything sexual violence has declined some as the popularity of gaming has increased (along with all other forms of violent crime incidentally). I think a rational argument can still be made that the messages contained within a game are sexist, even if you can't make quantitative and objective measures of what that means.

In short, if someone makes a persuasive argument for the presence of sexism in games, that is sufficient burden of proof for the conclusion "there are sexist elements in this game".
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09-09-2014, 01:02 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 12:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It does desensitize people to real violence. Are you saying that they have no effect at all?
No, I'm not saying that. I'm skeptical of the views that you have voiced so far, namely that video games not only shape the views of people on real life situations (e.g. relationships) in significant ways, but that they are also representative of the views of their target demographic. You have yet to present any hard data to substantiate these views; it seems to me like they amount to nothing more than speculation. It's not just that, though. As per my previous post, the absurdity of your argument's conclusion becomes clear when you look at many other prevalent themes in video games that don't correspond to the views of people in real life. This whole thing reeks of the media's scape-goating when blaming video games for school shootings.

There seems to be a visceral almost knee jerk reaction by gamers whenever any criticism is given to that medium that against any other medium would be par for the course, to deny that not only is there a problem but there could never be a problem. I am not claiming that videogames are the only source of these issues or sentiments but they sure as hell help to perpetuate the idea.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-09-2014, 01:04 PM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 12:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 12:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It does desensitize people to real violence. Are you saying that they have no effect at all?
No, I'm not saying that. I'm skeptical of the views that you have voiced so far, namely that video games not only shape the views of people on real life situations (e.g. relationships) in significant ways, but that they are also representative of the views of their target demographic. You have yet to present any hard data to substantiate these views; it seems to me like they amount to nothing more than speculation. It's not just that, though. As per my previous post, the absurdity of your argument's conclusion becomes clear when you look at many other prevalent themes in video games that don't correspond to the views of people in real life. This whole thing reeks of the media's scape-goating when blaming video games for school shootings.

Counterpoint:

If not, on some level, from the attitudes of the creators and intended audience - where do the ideas come from? Why are they there?

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09-09-2014, 01:10 PM
AW: RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 01:04 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Counterpoint:

If not, on some level, from the attitudes of the creators and intended audience - where do the ideas come from? Why are they there?
I don't know; that's a question someone should ask the developers of the games that are being criticized by feminist gamers.

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09-09-2014, 01:21 PM
AW: RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(09-09-2014 01:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  There seems to be a visceral almost knee jerk reaction by gamers whenever any criticism is given to that medium that against any other medium would be par for the course, to deny that not only is there a problem but there could never be a problem.
In case you were referring to me with that, I'm a bit short on patience right now due to health issues that are causing me 24/7 pain. It has put me on edge; please keep that in mind. You've known me long enough to know that I normally never lose my temper. Tongue

(09-09-2014 01:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I am not claiming that videogames are the only source of these issues or sentiments but they sure as hell help to perpetuate the idea.
I can agree with that, albeit I don't think it's a bad thing. That's a discussion for a different thread, though.

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