Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
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10-09-2014, 02:14 AM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(10-09-2014 02:11 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(10-09-2014 02:07 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Oh really how many legal briefs have you filed on behalf of same sex couples trying to get married, or women who experienced over sexual discrimination in the workplace or some black kid harassed by the cops? I'm going to guess exactly 0. That shit takes time several thousand hours for some of them.

Why, now, are we limiting "accomplishing anything" to filing legal briefs? Is interpersonal discourse in an effort to change minds not accomplishing anything? Does that not lend support to overall change?

It would if you were not denigrating people actually doing real work to make a difference because you want to be a bitch about a label. Sorry but yes a full time worker at NOW or UHA does more to advance the cause than someone sitting at a computer.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-09-2014, 02:20 AM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(10-09-2014 02:14 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(10-09-2014 02:11 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Why, now, are we limiting "accomplishing anything" to filing legal briefs? Is interpersonal discourse in an effort to change minds not accomplishing anything? Does that not lend support to overall change?

It would if you were not denigrating people actually doing real work to make a difference because you want to be a bitch about a label. Sorry but yes a full time worker at NOW or UHA does more to advance the cause than someone sitting at a computer.

I can concede that they do more. But the implication is that any other form of effort is worthless.

With that said, labels are important. I understand that Feminism is generally the push to make women equal to men when/where they face inequality. That's totally cool. Obviously. But again, labels are important, and as can be seen clearly, they have the ability to create confusion and unrest.

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10-09-2014, 02:33 AM
AW: RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(10-09-2014 02:20 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  But again, labels are important, and as can be seen clearly, they have the ability to create confusion and unrest.
I'd argue that that's not so much because of the label as much as it is because of the behavior of people who call themselves "feminists" online. If you spend a day on Tumblr, you'll walk away, thinking that feminism goes hand-in-hand with misandry and other forms of bigotry.

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10-09-2014, 02:39 AM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(10-09-2014 02:20 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(10-09-2014 02:14 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It would if you were not denigrating people actually doing real work to make a difference because you want to be a bitch about a label. Sorry but yes a full time worker at NOW or UHA does more to advance the cause than someone sitting at a computer.

I can concede that they do more. But the implication is that any other form of effort is worthless.

With that said, labels are important. I understand that Feminism is generally the push to make women equal to men when/where they face inequality. That's totally cool. Obviously. But again, labels are important, and as can be seen clearly, they have the ability to create confusion and unrest.

Indeed Labels are important and recent events around here and elsewhere show that if one concedes a label to a strawman then it is used against anyone actually fighting for equality. So there comes discussions like this, you can more or less blame Res and people like him for why you got the reaction you got.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-09-2014, 02:44 AM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(10-09-2014 02:33 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(10-09-2014 02:20 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  But again, labels are important, and as can be seen clearly, they have the ability to create confusion and unrest.
I'd argue that that's not so much because of the label as much as it is because of the behavior of people who call themselves "feminists" online. If you spend a day on Tumblr, you'll walk away, thinking that feminism goes hand-in-hand with misandry and other forms of bigotry.

Well, in fairness, I've seen plenty of those as well, and at one time thought they were accurate representations of feminism. Then someone told me that "you've undoubtedly met numerous feminists in your life and didn't even know it." So I looked to a friend of mine who is an active feminist (organizes rallies and waves signs and all that), and observed how she acted and listened to her thoughts. Then I realized that feminism (or any "ism," for that matter) is a lot like atheism. People hear I'm an atheist and they ask why atheists are always in everyone's face and belittling those with belief. These are large groups of different individuals who go about it in their own way. I was unfair to generalize.

With that said, the label lends to the issue as well. I've had women practically crucifying me because I own a penis and they felt that something I did or said was misogynistic. Then they wave the flag of "feminism" which, in itself, directly suggests advocation of one gender over another. While this may be a matter of semantics and a trivial point, it is certainly something to consider. Many people (admittedly, myself included) tend to judge books by their covers and begin forming an opinion based on what they see. After all, that's why the cover is there.


Anyway, I had some misconceptions, asked some questions and concede a new perspective on the matter. (Despite assumptions to the contrary) Yes, Revenant, I concede.

And imagine: I would have asked the same questions and accepted the same change of view had you not been a complete cock about it. Funny that. Dodgy

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10-09-2014, 04:26 AM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(10-09-2014 01:48 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  If I called myself a "Caucasianist," what would you think I stood for?

... If you did, would I be justified in assuming, without further knowledge of the Caucasianist movement, that *all* you gave a shit about was Caucasian rights? I mean, sure, if you called yourself a Caucasianist and Caucasianism was widely known to be some kinda white power bullshit, then I guess I'd probably think you were some narrow-minded dick, but if for example Caucasians were an oppressed minority in your country or whatever, then is it really that helpful to tell you that you should rather call yourself a humanist? It's perfectly possible, I'm sure, to be a Caucasianist *and* a feminist *and* a humanist etc.

Feminism exists as a movement *because* there is sexual discrimination which is pervasive throughout society, both Western and otherwise. It is naturally allied to causes like non-racialism and gay rights because they're also causes which are about equal treatment.

Right at the moment a lot of arseholes (to be frank) are deliberately propagating the myth that feminism is not about equality but rather about man-bashing and raising females to a kinda "more equal" position in society - about replacing the patriarchy with a matriarchy, in effect. This crap of "rather be more inclusive and call yourself a humanist" is basically... implying that those who call themselves feminist are supporting this distorted view of what feminism is - which I kinda get a bit irritated about.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-09-2014, 04:33 AM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
Further to that point:

If I was a gay rights activist, would you automatically assume that I didn't give a shit for anyone else's rights *other* than gay people? Obviously not... so... to quibble about the feminist label seems... not cool...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-09-2014, 06:33 AM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(10-09-2014 01:48 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(10-09-2014 01:42 AM)morondog Wrote:  Jesus H. FUCKING Christ. It's *fucking* semantics. Feminists *are not exclusive*... It's not like they say "Oh, and men can just go get fucked"...

I'm not pro gay rights, I'm pro rights for everyone. That's why it's better to be humanist Rolleyes So fuck all those gay rights campaigners.

Just going by the name, bro.

If I called myself a "Caucasianist," what would you think I stood for?

Shallow, ignorant, thoughtless stupidity? Consider

When 'Caucasians' are enslaved, down-trodden, and stripped of rights, then you can be a Caucasianist. And more power to you.

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10-09-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
(10-09-2014 01:54 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  It is entirely possible, however, to advocate equal rights for all in one, sweeping motion without giving the impression that you are being exclusive.
The problem is the exclusive club has been around for centuries, but for men. If feminism now appears to be exclusive, it isn't. It's just that rights for women has a lot of catching up to do. There is no point in focusing on rights for men too when men already have those rights. Sure, there are the exceptions that a few people bring up of real or perceived going too far the opposite way, but those are so small that it's not even worth bringing into the picture until women have a much more equal standing with men.

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10-09-2014, 10:50 AM
RE: Anti-Feminism is poisoning atheism
Some people like labels because it helps them define the world they live in. Others don't because labels mess with their world view.
Personally, I think there's room for both trains of thought. The world is a big place.

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