Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
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26-02-2014, 04:06 PM
Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
I was having a discussion with my brother in law who is very anti vaccine. He expressed his worries about the mercury in vaccines, so I told him the facts on that. After that, he then told me that the biggest problem for him is that there has never been a study done on people who received a vaccine, versus a placebo vaccine because it would be inhumane to do a study like that. He said that that would be the only way to prove that vaccines were effective, and until they are proven to be effective that he has trouble being for them.

After reading what he said I am just in complete shock and I honestly do not know how to even reply to that. The stupidity of it is just...I am lost for words. Anyone one care to help me out here?
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26-02-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
Ask him how he thinks smallpox has been all but eradicated.
Tell him about Edward Jenner's pioneering work in vaccines.
Anyone who thinks vaccines don't work should read his story and be amazed.
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26-02-2014, 04:35 PM
RE: Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
Such study wouldn't be conclusive because the unvaccinated people would benefit from the immunity the rest of the community receives, if everyone but a few are vaccinated, those who aren't don't get sick, because the germs are not around to infect them.

Therefore, we should get our conclusions from actual scientific research instead of a vulgar survey as he proposes. There are plenty of studies that prove the effectiveness of vaccines and not only by indirect statistical studies, but from actual germ killing evidence. He should make his homework before claiming he understands diseases better than people who live studying them.

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26-02-2014, 05:53 PM
RE: Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
(26-02-2014 04:35 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Such study wouldn't be conclusive because the unvaccinated people would benefit from the immunity the rest of the community receives, if everyone but a few are vaccinated, those who aren't don't get sick, because the germs are not around to infect them.

Therefore, we should get our conclusions from actual scientific research instead of a vulgar survey as he proposes. There are plenty of studies that prove the effectiveness of vaccines and not only by indirect statistical studies, but from actual germ killing evidence. He should make his homework before claiming he understands diseases better than people who live studying them.

I should've gone into more depth about that, forgive me. What he was saying was that you take 2 groups of people, vaccine one group with a real vaccine, and vaccinate the other group with a placebo. Then you introduce the disease to each group in a controlled environment. Which is why he said it would be inhumane, because you would be risking the lives of people by introducing them to a deadly virus without being vaccinated. Either way, it would be illogical. I'm not sure what exactly about that experiment would prove effectiveness however...If the vaccinated person did get the illness, there are a lot of other factors you would have to look at. It would not automatically "prove" the vaccine doesn't work. Then again, we are talking about someone who believes getting the flu vaccine causes the flu.
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26-02-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
Now my sister is posting vaccine related posts and articles because she knows I am talking about with her husband. She posted this video and this article:





http://nsnbc.me/2013/05/10/the-vaccine-h...f-coverup/

Just seeing "Alex Jones" it makes me want to run the other way.
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26-02-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
(26-02-2014 05:53 PM)Punk Pumpkin Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 04:35 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Such study wouldn't be conclusive because the unvaccinated people would benefit from the immunity the rest of the community receives, if everyone but a few are vaccinated, those who aren't don't get sick, because the germs are not around to infect them.

Therefore, we should get our conclusions from actual scientific research instead of a vulgar survey as he proposes. There are plenty of studies that prove the effectiveness of vaccines and not only by indirect statistical studies, but from actual germ killing evidence. He should make his homework before claiming he understands diseases better than people who live studying them.

I should've gone into more depth about that, forgive me. What he was saying was that you take 2 groups of people, vaccine one group with a real vaccine, and vaccinate the other group with a placebo. Then you introduce the disease to each group in a controlled environment. Which is why he said it would be inhumane, because you would be risking the lives of people by introducing them to a deadly virus without being vaccinated. Either way, it would be illogical. I'm not sure what exactly about that experiment would prove effectiveness however...If the vaccinated person did get the illness, there are a lot of other factors you would have to look at. It would not automatically "prove" the vaccine doesn't work. Then again, we are talking about someone who believes getting the flu vaccine causes the flu.

This is the link he sent me of what he is talking about: https://www.bcm.edu/research/centers/chi...lw-98e.htm
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26-02-2014, 06:20 PM
RE: Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
(26-02-2014 05:53 PM)Punk Pumpkin Wrote:  ...
take 2 groups of people, vaccine one group with a real vaccine, and vaccinate the other group with a placebo. Then you introduce the disease to each group in a controlled environment.
...

As EnglishRose said, just look at the smallpox occurrences before and after.

Surely the 'placebo' group would have the same results as the community before the use of the vaccine.

Is your brother-in-law honestly saying that viruses are a psychological phenomena? Ohmy

What's happening here is a well-known effect of anything proactive, e.g. "why the fuck do we have to pay so much for our IT support? Our IT never goes wrong!"

Fine. Take it away and see what happens.

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26-02-2014, 06:38 PM
RE: Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
(26-02-2014 06:20 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 05:53 PM)Punk Pumpkin Wrote:  ...
take 2 groups of people, vaccine one group with a real vaccine, and vaccinate the other group with a placebo. Then you introduce the disease to each group in a controlled environment.
...

As EnglishRose said, just look at the smallpox occurrences before and after.

Surely the 'placebo' group would have the same results as the community before the use of the vaccine.

Is your brother-in-law honestly saying that viruses are a psychological phenomena? Ohmy

What's happening here is a well-known effect of anything proactive, e.g. "why the fuck do we have to pay so much for our IT support? Our IT never goes wrong!"

Fine. Take it away and see what happens.

That is what I thought he was inferring as well, but I am not quite sure. This is the link he sent me about the experiment if it helps any. https://www.bcm.edu/research/centers/chi...lw-98e.htm

It is a little hard for me because they are huge conspiracy theorists, and I was too until about a month or so ago, but now I am starting to see that conspiracy theorist are not far off from religious nuts. It is hard because they keep posting and sending me these sources that have a fear mongering, conspiracy vibe to them and since I believed in that stuff for so long it is hard to look at these things objectively and without emotion.
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26-02-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
they seem to take more pleasure in reading woo and having that feel of fake superiority than actually wanting to know and understand what they're talking about. Don't waste too much effort, or at least go slow, they won't listen to reason any time soon... Sad

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26-02-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Anti-Vaccine argument that I have never heard before
(26-02-2014 07:04 PM)nach_in Wrote:  they seem to take more pleasure in reading woo and having that feel of fake superiority than actually wanting to know and understand what they're talking about. Don't waste too much effort, or at least go slow, they won't listen to reason any time soon... Sad

Exactly...it's really hard to reason with someone who thinks the government is plotting to kill us all. It's hard since they are family :/
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