Anti-anti-GMO rant...
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27-06-2013, 10:18 PM
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
(27-06-2013 12:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-06-2013 11:25 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  My best friend posted this nonsense on my facebook wall...

[Image: 971319_434616243304218_1736725479_n.jpg]

...and I went straight off right here...

*rantilicious*

...which I share for your amusement. Thumbsup

The anti-GMO crowd sounds a lot like the anti same-sex marriage crowd.

They have no actual argument, just they think it's icky so they concoct some rationalization.


These are people who wouldn't take ascorbic acid or pharmaceutical vitamin C, but will pay extra for "organic, all-natural vitamin C".

Same fucking thing.

The one valid argument in the Anti-GMO's arsenal is the ability of Monsanto and other biotech companies to patent these strains of wheat and other types of genetically engineered or modified organisms. It raises a number of ethical questions about who owns a living thing and what rights does said organism have.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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27-06-2013, 10:29 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2013 10:41 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
(27-06-2013 08:57 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(27-06-2013 06:40 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I'm not against GMO I'm against how GMO is being used by the chemical industry to support unsustainable monoculture farming, the near extinction of the honey bee, and the mass introduction of harmful chemical herbicides and pesticides in the water and air (if they are so safe go drink a bottle of round up and prove me wrong).

I'd be fine with larger fruit or more corn per stalk but that's not what is going on, these guys are pushing GMOs that simply aim to make subsidized cash crops resistant to herbicide (so that it can be used year round and enter rain water during the summer months) or to make the plants produce nicotine like insecticides which cause cancer and kill honey bees. Farming has become an industrialized process and it is locked in an arms race with nature (even the round up is failing now and monsanto is pushing patents for agent orange derivative resistant strains). We where never meant to grow and eat only corn and soy, farmers are supposed to diversify and rotate not obliterate the land and soil to take advantage of government subsidies. Cattle are supposed to graze on C02 absorbing grasslands not eat GMO corn in a pen all day (this is why we have global warming more so than cars/electricity).

...and don't even get me started on anti-biotics in the meat industry.

...or the absurdity of gene patents.

...or Monsanto's questionable legal practices.

...Or their involvement in the Vietnam war and the suffering they gave rise too over generations of Vietnamese children.




If I remember correctly, there's no correlation between GMOs and honeybees; it's a virus or parasite. The RoundUp patent has expired. The glyophospate used in RoundUp is cat four, the lowest FDA warning; there's no contamination occurring from run-off.

And the way I see it is like this. Back in the day, Monsanto sends a rep out to the farmers, tells them how they can cut costs with their product. The farmers think, more profit, less work, sign us up. Nobody wants to think of any kind of tomorrow beyond the harvest, beyond the payday. It starts small, but builds, season to season, with more and more subscribers... and it's only between the farmers and Monsanto. Nobody else knows anything.

Then the Internet happens. People start communicating. People start asking questions.

Gee, Farmer Bob, did you sell our children's future for today's paycheck?

Well, I didn't know that was gonna happen... besides, they're evil! I didn't know their shit causes cancer, pollutes rivers, kills bees! Go talk to them!

Hmmn. Dodgy

The first paragraph is from shit I just skimmed through researching my rant, I don't have the sources at hand, I cannot be certain I'm not misinterpreting or misinterpretating the data. It was tangential to the focus of my presentation.

Anybody wants to come up with sourced data for or against, I'll take it and incorporate into the next bit. If I can take away the nonsense from some of these anti-GMO slactivists and give them some actual ammo, that's a win, too. I'm not pro-GMO, I'm pro-science.

The patent may have expired on the Round Up but thats why they had to push for a patent on the seeds, that is how they stay profitable, that is why there is so much money going in and so much creative lawyering going on.

The shit makes weeds in my driveway turn brown and die in about 5 minutes, you really think it's harmless? ...and the weeds are evolving to resist it so they keep using more and more and looking into stronger and stronger stuff. That's biology 101. It's the same problem we face with the anti-biotics.

The pesticides and herbicides used to be a spring only thing...You wipe the field before you plant, now they are doing it year round because the GMO lets them. In the summer months the sun is vaporizing all that shit and it is raining down on Kansas City, it's measurable in the air. Trying to find the Bill Mahr interview with Gary Hirshberg but HBO took it down.

Why spend millions on a propaganda campaign to stop labeling in CA? labeling! not sale! Why are labels so dangerous? Why can't we have knowledge, we label happy meal toys with their point of origin but we can't know what we are eating?

Why stand behind this monoculture progress trap? The only thing feeding the world right now is nitrogen fertilizer which is a petrochemical and hence in ever shorting supply. We are growing corn with petrochem fertilizer to turn it into ethanol and loosing energy in the process.

"The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself."
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

There are a whole slew of private studies linking colony collapse to pesticides (Google news it), even the EPA study cites it, it just also sites a bunch of other factors (which I assume are probably less relevant) and then throws it's hands up like every government agency does when a powerful corporate lobby comes into play. In France colony collapse was reversed after a ban on Monsanto products (most notably the sunflowers). I've seen no less than 3 documentaries on the subject, my friends father lost all 6 of his colonies within a week last year, I've counted a whooping two bees this year and I have been outside hiking...fuck it here is my daughter in a patch of wildflowers...not 1 bee!

[Image: wildflowers.jpg]

70% of domestic and 90% of wild bees are gone in the states (or maybe invert that I can't recall)....There are people who have been making a living carting bees around on 18 wheelers just to get farms pollinated, and they are loosing their colonies and as they report it, it isn't mites.

It's certainly real, pesticide is certainly a major player and I don't think people realize the economic and environmental disaster that is colony collapse.

The EPA's response is like saying "Well we know that there are mass murderers hacking people up, but some people are dying in car accidents so I don't see a point in stopping mass murderers."

...Labeling the end of farm subsidies targeting cash crops would be a start.

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27-06-2013, 11:24 PM (This post was last modified: 28-06-2013 12:35 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
(27-06-2013 10:29 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  70% of domestic and 90% of wild bees are gone in the states (or maybe invert that I can't recall)....There are people who have been making a living carting bees around on 18 wheelers just to get farms pollinated, and they are loosing their colonies and as they report it, it isn't mites.


Quote:Australia is one of the few nations in the world to have remained free of varroa mite (so far). And Australia – which has cellphones and towers, migratory and commercial beekeeping, neonic pesticides in agriculture, high fructose corn syrup for supplemental feeding, and environmental factors like drought and urbanization and all the rest – has had zero incidents of colony collapse disorder.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals...thing-that

Honey Bees and Colony Collapse Disorder (USDA)

Quote:The issue has fiercely divided the scientific community. Green groups and some scientists say the effects of the neonicotinoids are particularly devastating as the pesticide is applied to the seeds. That means it is present not only in the leaves which the insects eat, but also the pollen. Farmers, however, say the insecticides are vital to prevent crops being destroyed by pests including beetles and aphids.

Reaction from the scientists reflected this divide. Professor Lin Field, head of biological chemistry and crop protection at Rothamsted Research, said he feared the decision was based on "political lobbying" and could cause governments to overlook other factors contributing to declining bee numbers, such as climate change and viruses spread by mites.

But Dr Lynn Dicks, a research associate at the University of Cambridge, said that despite the contradictory studies, the EU was right to err on the side of caution. "This is a victory for the precautionary principle, which is supposed to underlie environmental regulation," she said.

~from http://www.independent.co.uk/environment...95408.html

Quote:Researchers from Harvard School of Public Health write that new research provides "convincing evidence" of the link between imidacloprid and the phenomenon known as Colony Collapse Disorder. Lead author of the study, Chensheng (Alex) Lu, stated that experiments showed a dose of 20 parts per billion of imidacloprid (less than the concentrations bees would encounter while foraging in sprayed crops), was enough to lead to Colony Collapse Disorder in 94% of colonies within 23 weeks.[30][50] The hives were nearly empty and the researchers did not find signs of the Nosema virus or Varroa mites.[51] The researchers proposed two possible sources of bees' exposure to imidacloprid. The first is through the nectar of plants sprayed with the pesticide itself, which is predicted by researchers at the University of Stirling, U.K., to have widespread impacts as imidacloprid is registered for use on over 140 crops in at least 120 countries.[49] The second is through the high-fructose corn-syrup that most bee-keepers in the United States use to feed their bees. Since application of imidacloprid to corn in the United States began in 2005 cases of Colony Collapse Disorder have grown significantly: from losses of 17% to 20% throughout the 1990s to somewhere between 30% and 90% of colonies in the United States since 2006.[7][47]
In May 2012, researchers at the University of San Diego released a study that showed that honey bees treated with a small dose of imidacloprid, comparable to what they would receive in nectar and formerly considered a safe amount, became "picky eaters," refusing nectars of lower sweetness and preferring to feed only on sweeter nectar. It was also found that bees exposed to imidacloprid performed the "waggle dance," the movements that bees use to inform hive mates of the location of foraging plants, at a lesser rate.[52]
Also in 2012, USDA researcher Jeff Pettis published the results of his study, which showed that bees treated with sub-lethal or low levels of imidacloprid had higher rates of infection with the pathogen Nosema than untreated bees.[34] His research confirmed that done by Alaux (2010) and Vidau (2011), who found that interactions between Nosema and neonicotinoids weakened bees and led to increased mortality.[35][53]

~from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidaclopri...ts_on_bees

Quote:By incorporating the findings from this in situ study and other reports, we have validated the study hy- pothesis in which the initial emergence of CCD in 2006/2007 coincided with the introduction of genetically engineered corn seeds treated with imidacloprid and other neonicotinoid insecticides. It is likely that CCD was caused by feeding honey bees with low levels of imida- cloprid in HFCS throughout their lifecycle in which tox- icity occurred during the larval/pupal stages and was later manifested in the adult honey bees. The proposed mecha- nism of delayed mortality should be carefully examined and validated in future studies.

~from http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdf...-106lu.pdf

Quote:The results were so dramatic—and so contradictory of real life experience of some beekeepers in Canada, Europe and Australia who use neonics and where many bee colonies are thriving—that the United Kingdom’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) decided to reevaluate existing research. The agency pointed to the problem with much of the lab based data—it measures doses and application methods that farmers don’t use. “The risk to bee populations from neonics, as they are currently used, is low.” DEFRA concluded in March. “Laboratory-based studies demonstrating sub-lethal effects on bees from neonics did not replicate realistic conditions, but extreme scenarios.. … While this assessment cannot exclude rare effects of neonicotinoids on bees in the field, it suggests that effects on bees do not occur under normal circumstances. Consequently, it supports the view that the risk to bee populations from neonicotinoids, as they are currently used, is low,” the study concluded.

Farmers are almost universally opposed to even a temporary ban absent definitive real world research, calling it reckless. As they note, because of the ban on organophosphates, there are no real alternatives to neonics, which everyone agrees have been extremely effective. Insecticides are used for a reason: to kill pests and make our food safer to eat. Without neonics or a suitable replacement, farmers could face losses estimated by one industry study as $5.78 billion per year in Europe alone—and many multiples of that if a ban is instituted in the United States and other major agricultural economies, with the costs passed on to consumers.

~from http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/20...ee-deaths/

Like the guinea pig says, hysteria's a real problem, here. To collate this information, I had to bypass pages and pages of sites entitled "natural-this," or "organic-that;" I'm not even wasting my time clicking those links. What I did find thus far is highly suggestive but not conclusive... and it's always about the money.

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28-06-2013, 12:55 AM (This post was last modified: 28-06-2013 01:09 AM by kim.)
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
Here's an informative Indian resource - they know about Monsanto. They are who first got me interested in seed saving at least a dozen years ago, maybe more. Many indigenous seed varieties have become extinct. It's about conservation of indigenous seed varieties, local bio diversity, and a sustainable way to fight poverty. Check out more seed savers in India.

The field contaminations and the introduction of hybrid seeds grown in monocultures requires increasingly larger inputs of fertilizers and pesticides, where indigenous seed varieties and smaller yields do not.
***

As for pesticides... I have my own farming horror stories. At one time, it seemed there wasn't a family I knew who didn't have someone connected to farming die within a single year 1979 - 1980. All surrounding or within the same group of communities who all got their fertilizer/pesticide, which they mixed with the seed, from the same places.

My Grandpa died of a freakish cancer... so did a lot of his neighbors and neighbors' kids. Grandpa had just had a full physical with blood work and everything so, this cancer was literally not in his body exactly 3 weeks prior to his death.

Right after he finished the last rounds in the field, drilling the next year's wheat crop, he didn't feel right. He went to the doctor thinking he had some kind of cold or flu. He was dead 4 days later. It was fast, even the doctor was stunned and he said, "He must have got into something - I've never seen a cancer that pervasive or that fast." I will never forget that he said that.
***

I am pro-Science, too. But so far, science isn't looking in the right place. It's not asking the right people. It's not asking the right questions. Do scientists make a lot of money?

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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28-06-2013, 01:10 AM
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
(28-06-2013 12:55 AM)kim Wrote:  At one time, it seemed there wasn't a family I knew who didn't have someone connected to farming die within a single year 1979 - 1980.

From wiki, above:
Quote:Imidacloprid was first widely used in the United States in 1996 as it replaced 3 broad classes of insecticides.

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28-06-2013, 01:13 AM
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
You aren't going back far enough.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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28-06-2013, 01:19 AM
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
(28-06-2013 01:13 AM)kim Wrote:  You aren't going back far enough.

I was researching the link between neonicotinoids and CCD. Your data precludes the introduction of neonics. The variables you suggest may no longer be in play.

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28-06-2013, 01:34 AM
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
Try any of these...
NutraSweet, Equal, BGH (aka rBGH, rBST, Posilac), Simplese (an artificial butter fat), Simple Pleasures Frozen Dairy Desserts, Salad Dressing and Moyonnaise;

Artificial fibers Astroturf and Wear Dated Carpets;

Home insulation foam sheeting called Fome-Cor;

Garden herbicides: Roundup and Dimension;

Agricultural chemicals: Lasso, Harness Plus, Far Go, Avauer, Machete, Bronco, Bullet, Cropstar GB, Freedom, Landmaster BW, Micro-Tech Partner, Ram Rod, Accord, Buckle, Fallow Master, Lariat, Rodeo;

Feed supplement and preservative: Alimet;

GM for longer shelf life tomato: the Flavr Savr tomato.

All made by Monsanto. It's not just one thing.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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28-06-2013, 02:02 AM (This post was last modified: 28-06-2013 12:58 PM by kim.)
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
Pfizer... what?

Searle discovered and introduced aspartame, a hugely successful sugar substitute. The Searle and Hereth Co. was incorporated in 1908 as G.D. Searle and Co. in Chicago, and in 1985, became the pharmaceutical unit of Monsanto.

In 1995, Pharmacia & Upjohn was formed through the merger of Pharmacia AB and The Upjohn Company. Pharmacia & Upjohn became a global provider of human health care products, animal health products, diagnostics and specialty products. In 1998, Pharmacia & Upjohn relocated its global headquarters from the United Kingdom to the United States.

In April 2000, Pharmacia & Upjohn completed a merger with Monsanto and Searle creating Pharmacia, a dynamic new competitor in the pharmaceutical industry. This top-tier company's innovative medicines and other products saved the lives of many and enhanced health and wellness. Following the merger, Pharmacia continued Searle's agreement with Pfizer to co-promote Celebrex, which was originally co-developed by Searle and Pfizer.

In August 2002, Pharmacia completed the spin-off of its agricultural subsidiary, Monsanto Company.

Pfizer Inc and Pharmacia Corporation began operating as a unified company on April 16, 2003, forging one of the world's fastest-growing and most valuable companies. With a research and development budget of $7.1 billion in 2003, the new Pfizer is now the world's leading research-based pharmaceutical company.
***

So when you get sick from all that shit Monsanto can do for you, Pfizer will help you out - seriously, it knows how.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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28-06-2013, 02:19 AM
RE: Anti-anti-GMO rant...
(28-06-2013 01:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I was researching the link between neonicotinoids and CCD. Your data precludes the introduction of neonics. The variables you suggest may no longer be in play.

According to wikipedia:
Quote:Most neonicotinoids are water-soluble and break down slowly in the environment, so they can be taken up by the plant and provide protection from insects as the plant grows. During the late 1990s this class of pesticides, primarily imidacloprid, became widely used. Beginning in the early 2000s, two other neonicotinoids, clothianidin and thiamethoxam were in use as well. Currently, virtually all corn that is planted in the Midwestern United States is treated with one of these two insecticides and various fungicides. In addition, most soybean seeds are also treated with a neonicotinoid insecticide, usually thiamethoxam. Clothianidin is one of the most toxic substances known for honey bees.

Sorry, wikipedia again but these are cited quotes.
Quote:The EPA granted a conditional, or temporary, registration to clothianidin in 2003. The same approval was given to thiamethoxam. Imidacloprid was registered in 1994. It was not conditional. The EPA is now re-evaluating the safety of neonicotinoids

But you've probably already run across all this. Shy

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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