Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
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11-02-2015, 04:00 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 11:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 10:51 AM)Chas Wrote:  ...
This is about immigrants publicly professing disagreement with the fundamentals of the society into which they chose to immigrate.

Dodgy

Are you talking about me?

Blush

Only if you're marching in the street with a sign that says "Mohammed is a Dirt Bag". Drinking Beverage

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11-02-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 01:26 PM)Blackout Wrote:  I wasn't talking to you Chas, I was replying to SunnyD1's proposal. I can agree with you that we are better off without immigrants who don't fit in. But right now it's to late to deport them because we are not allowed. We need to find other measures.

Re-education camps? Consider

But seriously, how about all immigrants must attend a civics class before they are granted permanent status?

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11-02-2015, 04:42 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
I hate Muslims. Fuck them and fuck Islam and fuck Moohammered.

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11-02-2015, 05:03 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(11-02-2015 04:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 01:26 PM)Blackout Wrote:  I wasn't talking to you Chas, I was replying to SunnyD1's proposal. I can agree with you that we are better off without immigrants who don't fit in. But right now it's to late to deport them because we are not allowed. We need to find other measures.

Re-education camps? Consider

But seriously, how about all immigrants must attend a civics class before they are granted permanent status?

Not a bad idea, but attending a class is not proof of your capacity to fit in a group. Additionally, since immigrants are equal under the law you can't force them into some test/class unless you plan to force natives as well.

Something to consider - People are upset about this and they have the right to be, but regardless of media exaggerations Muslims are still not the majority of the population and have little to no control over the media, means of production, politics, economy, social institutions... Basically, they have no way of oppressing the west, there's no reason why people should be afraid of Muslim invasion because they are not enough or powerful enough to do it. And yes, a terrorist attack is terrible but it isn't enough to conclude Muslim immigrants are invading Europe.

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11-02-2015, 07:53 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(09-02-2015 08:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 07:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Well; first off, Islam is not a political ideology. No more than, say, Christianity. Or socialism or conservatism or any extremely broad term...

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The Quran and hadiths make it clear that Islam demands political power - a theocracy.

Sure, but all religions are, strictly speaking, totalitarian. It follows almost inevitably from exclusive claims of absolute righteousness.

But most believers aren't. That's a distinction entirely worth maintaining.

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11-02-2015, 08:45 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(11-02-2015 07:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 08:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The Quran and hadiths make it clear that Islam demands political power - a theocracy.

Sure, but all religions are, strictly speaking, totalitarian. It follows almost inevitably from exclusive claims of absolute righteousness.

But most believers aren't. That's a distinction entirely worth maintaining.
I agree - I speak badly of Islam but I don't think Christianity or other religions are any better.

Try giving the church some power and you'll see what happens - I'd rather endure Muslim immigrants than dealing with an all powerful Catholic church

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11-02-2015, 08:55 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(11-02-2015 08:45 PM)Blackout Wrote:  
(11-02-2015 07:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Sure, but all religions are, strictly speaking, totalitarian. It follows almost inevitably from exclusive claims of absolute righteousness.

But most believers aren't. That's a distinction entirely worth maintaining.
I agree - I speak badly of Islam but I don't think Christianity or other religions are any better.

Try giving the church some power and you'll see what happens - I'd rather endure Muslim immigrants than dealing with an all powerful Catholic church

Just so. It is a variety of social influences that gives the hardliners in certain spheres the dominant voice - be they radical dominionist Christians or the strictest of Wahhabi Muslims, albeit with more, and more problematic, followers of the latter - but that's in a sense immaterial. A literal and absolutist reading of any religious text inspires that kind of sentiment. Because there's simply no other way to respond to a claim of perfect, inspired, absolute truth.

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11-02-2015, 09:22 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(11-02-2015 07:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 08:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The Quran and hadiths make it clear that Islam demands political power - a theocracy.

Sure, but all religions are, strictly speaking, totalitarian. It follows almost inevitably from exclusive claims of absolute righteousness.

But most believers aren't. That's a distinction entirely worth maintaining.

I think the difference is though that while Christians might want a theocracy (in some form or another), they still value free speech and all that shit.
Muslims however want a theocracy and they want to completely stamp out (via an ak and bomb if they have too) freedom of speech, basic human rights, gender/sexuality equality etc.. etc.. etc..



It doesn't matter what Christianity was in the past or what some redneck thinks.
It's Sunni Muslims in Syria/Iraq beheading people, it's Sunni Muslims in France shooting up newspaper buildings, it's Sunni Muslims holding a coffee shop full of people hostage in Sydney, it's Sunni Muslims (assuming it's Sunni, could be Shia, the point is that it's Muslim though) in London protesting free speech.

What's the common theme? Islam.

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11-02-2015, 09:29 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
Earmuffs I would say that because Christians are mostly western and have lived under western values for many years they are less prone to commit violence + The fact the French revolution and consequent liberalism imposed the principle of secularism (it was violated with fascism in Europe but now it is reinstated) and we all got used to it. Secularism is a fundamental principle for European constitutions

I don't think Christianity gets a pass for this and I strongly dislike the Catholic Church and other similar institutions (including Opus Dei) but there's no doubt that Islam is the most dangerous and violent, intolerant and oppressive religion out there. If you look at the top 10 terrorist organizations in the world you'll probably find 2 communist groups and the rest will be Muslims

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11-02-2015, 09:47 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(11-02-2015 09:22 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(11-02-2015 07:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Sure, but all religions are, strictly speaking, totalitarian. It follows almost inevitably from exclusive claims of absolute righteousness.

But most believers aren't. That's a distinction entirely worth maintaining.

I think the difference is though that while Christians might want a theocracy (in some form or another), they still value free speech and all that shit.
Muslims however want a theocracy and they want to completely stamp out (via an ak and bomb if they have too) freedom of speech, basic human rights, gender/sexuality equality etc.. etc.. etc..

It doesn't matter what Christianity was in the past or what some redneck thinks.
It's Sunni Muslims in Syria/Iraq beheading people, it's Sunni Muslims in France shooting up newspaper buildings, it's Sunni Muslims holding a coffee shop full of people hostage in Sydney, it's Sunni Muslims (assuming it's Sunni, could be Shia, the point is that it's Muslim though) in London protesting free speech.

What's the common theme? Islam.

Except it's idiotic to say that religion is the sole factor there. Go ahead and tell some Irish people that Christianity and its doctrinal differences are a merely academic issue, I dare you...

Abortion clinic bombers and Anders Breivik weren't Muslim, last I checked.

I expect more from you than to speak of "Muslims" - and "Christians" - as a monolithic hivemind. Most of the victims of the so-called "Caliphate" in the mid-east are also Muslim. Most of those in, say, the US, who oppose dominionist Christians are themselves theists. So what does that tell us?

The common thread in extremist actions is fanaticism. Which takes religious guise where available but is not born of it. Else it would not be found worldwide...

Look, the Quran is a shitstorm, no question here. So is the Bible. No question! But I defy the degenerate insanity that would cop out on acknowledging nuance in believers, no matter their beliefs. That's just pathetically intellectually lazy.

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