Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
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08-02-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(08-02-2015 02:14 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I don't want to be this angry all of the time, I WANT to have some hope. I want to believe Islam can coexist. I can't see it.

So, the tens of millions of Muslims who do happen to live peacefully and happily in dozens of western nations... any thoughts on them?

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08-02-2015, 02:38 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(08-02-2015 02:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  My gut reaction is to deny/revoke citizenship and deport any immigrants who participate in those protests.

There is no valid reason for them to stay in a country whose core values they so clearly disagree with and want to fundamentally change.

That would be politically incorrect, we can't have that happening.
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08-02-2015, 03:48 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(08-02-2015 02:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 02:14 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I don't want to be this angry all of the time, I WANT to have some hope. I want to believe Islam can coexist. I can't see it.

So, the tens of millions of Muslims who do happen to live peacefully and happily in dozens of western nations... any thoughts on them?

Why do you follow me around on forums and attempt to pick on everything I say?

I never said muslims can't live peacefully or happily in western countries. In fact, there is no evidence that the majority of muslims at this demo are anything but peaceful muslims.

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08-02-2015, 04:02 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(08-02-2015 03:48 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 02:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  So, the tens of millions of Muslims who do happen to live peacefully and happily in dozens of western nations... any thoughts on them?

Why do you follow me around on forums and attempt to pick on everything I say?

Um... lolwut?

No, I... I don't do that, man.

(08-02-2015 03:48 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I never said muslims can't live peacefully or happily in western countries. In fact, there is no evidence that the majority of muslims at this demo are anything but peaceful muslims.

You literally said "I want to believe Islam can coexist". You imply that this hope is made troublesome by the relatively small numbers of people who join these protests...

I can understand the frustration. I sympathise. But I find the kind of comment you made to be rather unhelpful.

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08-02-2015, 04:24 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(08-02-2015 04:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 03:48 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Why do you follow me around on forums and attempt to pick on everything I say?

Um... lolwut?

No, I... I don't do that, man.

(08-02-2015 03:48 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I never said muslims can't live peacefully or happily in western countries. In fact, there is no evidence that the majority of muslims at this demo are anything but peaceful muslims.

You literally said "I want to believe Islam can coexist". You imply that this hope is made troublesome by the relatively small numbers of people who join these protests...

I can understand the frustration. I sympathise. But I find the kind of comment you made to be rather unhelpful.

It feels that way :'(

Hmm, let's see. I've never been really good at expressing myself. I mean to make the distinction between Islam as a political ideology from muslims as individual personalities.

What do you find unhelpful? Hopefully you can help me see the light in a dark situation!

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08-02-2015, 04:50 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
Can I throw this in the mix here too guys, as an update as to what's happening in Britain; University of Manchester has introduced blasphemy codes and banned pictures of Muhammad.

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08-02-2015, 04:56 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(08-02-2015 04:50 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Can I throw this in the mix here too guys, as an update as to what's happening in Britain; University of Manchester has introduced blasphemy codes and banned pictures of Muhammad.

Ooh - how cravenly PC of them. Drinking Beverage

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08-02-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(08-02-2015 04:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 04:50 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Can I throw this in the mix here too guys, as an update as to what's happening in Britain; University of Manchester has introduced blasphemy codes and banned pictures of Muhammad.

Ooh - how cravenly PC of them. Drinking Beverage

Yeah, I saw this on social media in relation to the Rotherham scandal (I'm sure you've read about it), "They sacrifice our daughters on the alter of political correctness to maintain the illusion of social cohesion". Exactly how I feel about it.

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08-02-2015, 07:09 PM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(08-02-2015 04:24 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  It feels that way :'(

Hmm, let's see. I've never been really good at expressing myself.

I am sorry for that. I think you're a good guy (?) and I think I understand where you're coming from, but I also think the way you've phrased some things has been... unfortunate.

(08-02-2015 04:24 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I mean to make the distinction between Islam as a political ideology from muslims as individual personalities.

What do you find unhelpful? Hopefully you can help me see the light in a dark situation!

Well; first off, Islam is not a political ideology. No more than, say, Christianity. Or socialism or conservatism or any extremely broad term...

I think it's just a very bizarre thing to say. You say you want to believe that Muslims can "coexist" - I assume you mean within certain western nations? But to say that at all implies that you want to but aren't able to. And why not? Because of what you mention on your OP? But that would necessitate two baseless generalisations: that all people at such demonstrations are willing to go beyond protesting, and that all of the many people who aren't there would agree with them. Both are dangerous assumptions.

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09-02-2015, 06:28 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(08-02-2015 07:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 04:24 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  It feels that way :'(

Hmm, let's see. I've never been really good at expressing myself.

I am sorry for that. I think you're a good guy (?) and I think I understand where you're coming from, but I also think the way you've phrased some things has been... unfortunate.

(08-02-2015 04:24 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I mean to make the distinction between Islam as a political ideology from muslims as individual personalities.

What do you find unhelpful? Hopefully you can help me see the light in a dark situation!

Well; first off, Islam is not a political ideology. No more than, say, Christianity. Or socialism or conservatism or any extremely broad term...

I think it's just a very bizarre thing to say. You say you want to believe that Muslims can "coexist" - I assume you mean within certain western nations? But to say that at all implies that you want to but aren't able to. And why not? Because of what you mention on your OP? But that would necessitate two baseless generalisations: that all people at such demonstrations are willing to go beyond protesting, and that all of the many people who aren't there would agree with them. Both are dangerous assumptions.

Islam is a political ideology and religion entwined, it makes divine claims for the laws it sets out, and we all know divine claims are unalterable. The cliche examples are the laws of sharia. This untouchable divinity is absolutely incompatible with progressive liberal societies. I think that the reason other religion are able to comply and Islam has a particular problem is a mixture of the cultural and political climate that it comes from, countries where they are used to blasphemy laws and such.

You've put again that I said muslims when mentioning coexistence, I said Islam. The reason I differentiate between the two is because muslims as individuals have the choice to submit certain cultural and religious values and rules in order to coexist with a society that may contradict these values. However, they do this in spite of Islam. Others cite jihad because they are not able to practice their religion to the fullest, they claim oppression and this, in their eyes, allows them to become hostile.

God I'm trying to rush this before I go to university, sorry if it doesn't make sense haha, will refine it later if needed.

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