Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
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10-02-2015, 07:59 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
To even mention race in relation to this discussion was absolutely irrelevant.

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10-02-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 07:54 AM)Blackout Wrote:  
Quote:He and I were discussing what I said, not what others say. He implied I was racist.
I don't think you are racist. But I think the line becomes blurry in our minds
Quote:We already go down that path. An immigrant can be deported for a felony conviction.
In America probably, in the EU no - An immigrant serves time just like any other citizen. It's called the principle of equality

Does that apply to those from outside the EU?

Quote:
Quote:Don't you fucking start with the racist crap, too. I clearly stated 'immigrants who want to fundamentally change the basis of the society. Stick to the discussion or butt out.
- What I'm saying is true - The far right uses the same argument and it's complicated to distinguish between legitimate measures and the ones motivated by xenophobia or racism
- How the hell do you propose knowing who fits that criteria?
- And do you think deporting immigrants is better than educating them?

Educating them? That's called assimilation and is precisely what they are refusing.

Quote:
Quote:Oh, for fuck's sake. What has any of that to do with the point?
Since this is in Britain it has everything to do with the EU's rules. You have to abide by them
Quote:That, again, has nothing to do with the discussion.
I'm pointing out the fact you are so worried about immigrants when
1 - They are still a minority and a population of 2-10% of Muslims has almost no control over means of production, media, politics and cannot destroy or oppress the rest of society --> Therefore they are not a danger
2 - There are far worse criminals that are not deported
3 - You are giving different treatment to people simply because they were born in a certain place. That's discriminatory - You can argue on semantics, but it is, if you give different treatment to immigrants you are discriminating

I am not 'so worried about immigrants' - please stick to what I have actually said.

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10-02-2015, 08:13 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
Quote:Does that apply to those from outside the EU?
I studied EU laws 2 years ago but I'm 99% sure yes - If they have passports they can stay and we can't deport them. Why else do you think there are so many Africans, middle easterns and so on? On top of that EU countries have treaties with other countries that allow for a higher flux of immigrants without discrimination
Quote:Educating them? That's called assimilation and is precisely what they are refusing.
This is an exaggerated generalization. You have (1000?) 1000 people in London protesting that represents a minority of the immigrant population. How do you propose
1 - Deporting them
2 - Telling the EU, the UN and the ECHR that we are discriminating against people with other nationalities? These are all institutions that have power - The European Court for Human Rights and the European Convention for Human Rights has done a lot of things (measures with direct application to states, etc.), namely prohibiting discrimination just because the flag in your ID card is different. I have met native citizens that don't fit the values of my country as well. How do I deal with them?

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10-02-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:13 AM)Blackout Wrote:  
Quote:Does that apply to those from outside the EU?
I studied EU laws 2 years ago but I'm 99% sure yes - If they have passports they can stay and we can't deport them. Why else do you think there are so many Africans, middle easterns and so on? On top of that EU countries have treaties with other countries that allow for a higher flux of immigrants without discrimination
Quote:Educating them? That's called assimilation and is precisely what they are refusing.
This is an exaggerated generalization. You have (1000?) 1000 people in London protesting that represents a minority of the immigrant population. How do you propose
1 - Deporting them
2 - Telling the EU, the UN and the ECHR that we are discriminating against people with other nationalities? These are all institutions that have power - The European Court for Human Rights and the European Convention for Human Rights has done a lot of things (measures with direct application to states, etc.), namely prohibiting discrimination just because the flag in your ID card is different. I have met native citizens that don't fit the values of my country as well. How do I deal with them?

I am only speaking about immigrants. Quit bringing in extraneous arguments.

Immigrating is a choice by the immigrant. Allowing entry is a choice by the destination country. Allowing continued residence is a choice by the destination country.

If the immigrant disagrees so fundamentally with the laws and customs, why did he/she immigrate? Why should he/she be allowed to stay?

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10-02-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
I'm still waiting for your proposal on how are we supposed to deport them when it's illegal...

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10-02-2015, 08:29 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  If the immigrant disagrees so fundamentally with the laws and customs, why did he/she immigrate? Why should he/she be allowed to stay?

If a person is resident, legally resident in a country, do they have the right to seek to change the laws of that country to suit themselves better? Is that not a fundamental democratic right, to advance one's own cause through legal means such as peaceful protest?

If I immigrate and I don't like some aspect of where I end up, am I supposed to just live with it for the rest of my life purely because I wasn't born there?

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10-02-2015, 08:29 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:28 AM)Blackout Wrote:  I'm still waiting for your proposal on how are we supposed to deport them when it's illegal...

Change the law.

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10-02-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 08:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  If the immigrant disagrees so fundamentally with the laws and customs, why did he/she immigrate? Why should he/she be allowed to stay?

If a person is resident, legally resident in a country, do they have the right to seek to change the laws of that country to suit themselves better? Is that not a fundamental democratic right, to advance one's own cause through legal means such as peaceful protest?

If I immigrate and I don't like some aspect of where I end up, am I supposed to just live with it for the rest of my life purely because I wasn't born there?
This depends on the circumstances. If this aspect discriminates against you legitimately then you are entitled to seek change. Namely if you are being discriminated in job interviews, in poverty, etc

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10-02-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 08:28 AM)Blackout Wrote:  I'm still waiting for your proposal on how are we supposed to deport them when it's illegal...

Change the law.

Oh Chas you make it look so simple. We'll have to wait until the EU crumbles and the ECHR is abolished. The later will most likely not be abolished, or at least I don't foresee it.

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10-02-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 08:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  If the immigrant disagrees so fundamentally with the laws and customs, why did he/she immigrate? Why should he/she be allowed to stay?

If a person is resident, legally resident in a country, do they have the right to seek to change the laws of that country to suit themselves better? Is that not a fundamental democratic right, to advance one's own cause through legal means such as peaceful protest?

If I immigrate and I don't like some aspect of where I end up, am I supposed to just live with it for the rest of my life purely because I wasn't born there?

Which part of 'fundamentally change' didn't you understand? Consider

And I ask again, why did this person immigrate when he fundamentally disagreed with the society and its laws and customs? Why should he be allowed to stay?

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