Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
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10-02-2015, 08:36 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:30 AM)Blackout Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 08:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  Change the law.

Oh Chas you make it look so simple. We'll have to wait until the EU crumbles and the ECHR is abolished. The later will most likely not be abolished, or at least I don't foresee it.

More to the point, my original post was that it was my gut reaction to those protestors.

Why did they immigrate if this was their belief? To disrupt the society and spread their anti-freedom views?

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10-02-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  Which part of 'fundamentally change' didn't you understand? Consider

And I ask again, why did this person immigrate when he fundamentally disagreed with the society and its laws and customs? Why should he be allowed to stay?

The bit where having an issue with the way things are done means you get kicked out... I thought free speech was an ideal? Maybe not here in the forum, but out there in the big bad world? The guys who protested did so peacefully. If they wanted to protest the law of gravity it's still OK as free speech, despite that that's a fundamental disagreement if ever there was one.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-02-2015, 08:47 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2015 08:51 AM by SunnyD1.)
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:30 AM)Blackout Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 08:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  Change the law.

Oh Chas you make it look so simple. We'll have to wait until the EU crumbles and the ECHR is abolished. The later will most likely not be abolished, or at least I don't foresee it.

I think that this is a flaw in the EU. I'm biting my tongue as I say this but I agree with UKIP on this subject.

An issue here is that in the ideal secular society it would not be a problem to see people like this protesting freedom of speech. This is because they would be ridiculed in the media as religious fanatical imbeciles. However, in Britain it will be more likely that they are defended from satire, and anybody insulting them will be called islamophobic racists (you already saw people above trying to involve the race card) and given special privileges and protection, causing further unrest.

Resulting in being squelched by the authorities (if not squelched, then the religious are often given benefits) when trying to stand up to the religious (because religion is automatically harbored in Britain), the mood and opinion of the opposition changes from comedy to tragedy. From "Let's ridicule them" to "Let's deport them". This of course is entirely not the fault of the religious, we should blame our fickle government for being so ridiculous. The unique factor of Islam being perceived (probably justifiably) as a new, foreign religion, contributes to the wide opinion that muslim immigrants should be deported if they disagree and refuse to abide by British law. Protests like this can legally be untouchable because they are peaceful, the "lone wolf" Islamists commit the violence and put fear in the hearts of our governments into granting "peaceful" protests like this whatever they ask for.

If I were the religious in situations like this I too would take advantage of such an appeasing, mindless bunch of fucking paedophiles that inhabit the house of parliament.

Edit: I guess my point is that, some of them should be deported, though legally they can't be, and it would also contradict the freedom of speech the country holds dear. Our only weapon against ridiculous beliefs is satire, but this is taken away by "islamophobic" claims etc. Therefore the only weapon the people see against such protests is physical i.e deportation or violence.

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10-02-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
SunnyD1 your post pretty much sums it up correctly. I think we need to find a middle ground between treating immigrants accordingly and being able to criticize harmful practices. Additionally, I think a middle ground between total open borders and zero open borders is also necessary. I have immigrant friends that never caused trouble and immigration can bring benefits

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10-02-2015, 09:25 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 08:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  Which part of 'fundamentally change' didn't you understand? Consider

And I ask again, why did this person immigrate when he fundamentally disagreed with the society and its laws and customs? Why should he be allowed to stay?

The bit where having an issue with the way things are done means you get kicked out... I thought free speech was an ideal? Maybe not here in the forum, but out there in the big bad world? The guys who protested did so peacefully. If they wanted to protest the law of gravity it's still OK as free speech, despite that that's a fundamental disagreement if ever there was one.

The bit where they disagree with fundamental freedoms is the point. My opinion is that they should never have been allowed to immigrate and they should be deported.

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10-02-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 08:57 AM)Blackout Wrote:  SunnyD1 your post pretty much sums it up correctly. I think we need to find a middle ground between treating immigrants accordingly and being able to criticize harmful practices. Additionally, I think a middle ground between total open borders and zero open borders is also necessary. I have immigrant friends that never caused trouble and immigration can bring benefits

I don't disagree with that. I never advocated closed borders. Drinking Beverage

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10-02-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 09:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 08:57 AM)Blackout Wrote:  SunnyD1 your post pretty much sums it up correctly. I think we need to find a middle ground between treating immigrants accordingly and being able to criticize harmful practices. Additionally, I think a middle ground between total open borders and zero open borders is also necessary. I have immigrant friends that never caused trouble and immigration can bring benefits

I don't disagree with that. I never advocated closed borders. Drinking Beverage

You still haven't answered an important question --> How do we know who abides by our freedoms or not? It's impossible to know if a middle eastern fits western values or even if he/she is a Muslim

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10-02-2015, 10:51 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 10:44 AM)Blackout Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 09:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  I don't disagree with that. I never advocated closed borders. Drinking Beverage

You still haven't answered an important question --> How do we know who abides by our freedoms or not? It's impossible to know if a middle eastern fits western values or even if he/she is a Muslim

This isn't specific to Middle Easterners or Muslims.

This is about immigrants publicly professing disagreement with the fundamentals of the society into which they chose to immigrate.

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10-02-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
But how do we know when a specific someone immigrates if they are going to conform to our society? And how do we know that they don't conform? For example, if you ban these Muslims in these protests, do you wish to ban their families, children, wives, etc, too?

Another question - If this was a demonstration made by native born Christian citizens, would you defend the same measure? If not, what would you defend doing?

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10-02-2015, 11:08 AM
RE: Anti-freedom of speech protests in London
(10-02-2015 11:01 AM)Blackout Wrote:  But how do we know when a specific someone immigrates if they are going to conform to our society? And how do we know that they don't conform? For example, if you ban these Muslims in these protests, do you wish to ban their families, children, wives, etc, too?

Another question - If this was a demonstration made by native born Christian citizens, would you defend the same measure? If not, what would you defend doing?

Which part of "public professing" was unclear?

This is about protecting a society against outside threats.

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