Anti-vaccination
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03-12-2013, 05:48 PM
RE: Anti-vaccination
All of the ingredients are natural, everything is "natural" Wink I never got that "all natural ingredients" thing
The ingredients they are worried about.. Most would have to be increased by.. What like 1million percent to actually do any harm? Laugh out load
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03-12-2013, 05:52 PM
RE: Anti-vaccination
They don't know that, tho. Wink We could just tell them we changed the preservative to a plant distillate and they'd think it was "safer." Unfortunately, the only thing that comes to mind is honeysuckle extract, and it's too closely related to parabens. (They HATE those!)

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04-12-2013, 12:02 PM
RE: Anti-vaccination
The Anti Vaccination group just serves to spread disease and death. (Almost literally). Also Ignorance.

I sadly used to have a few of them on Facebook. They kept posting 'articles' from blogs about how the mercury in vaccinations causes all these health issues. It was quite annoying. I tended to post actual facts and credible sources proving them wrong, tend to be met with "Stop being ignorant, you're helping spread the government propaganda". Sufficient to say I'm not friends with these people anymore.
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09-12-2013, 07:23 AM
RE: Anti-vaccination
(03-12-2013 05:40 PM)Cephalotus Wrote:  My ex is *always* talking about this and the flouride-in-the-water thing. I'm happy I'm not dumb enough to be taken in by this crap.

I know someone who is alway fired up about the "flouride-in-the-water thing". What is it, exactly? What are these people afraid of? That it's some kind of mind-control agent? I've always been afraid to ask this person because I'm afraid it's going to just be opening the door to full blown crazy and I don't have the patience or tolerance to listen to it. So, I don't ask him.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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09-12-2013, 08:45 AM
RE: Anti-vaccination
My (unbalanced) mother in law thought that Fluoride in the water was a cheap excuse for companies who produce Fluoride salts as waste products to dump their toxic waste in the water supply... and that politicians were behind it because they are all corporate shills.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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09-12-2013, 09:22 AM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2013 07:27 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Anti-vaccination
(03-12-2013 05:40 PM)Cephalotus Wrote:  My ex is *always* talking about this and the flouride-in-the-water thing. I'm happy I'm not dumb enough to be taken in by this crap.

Anyway, from what I understand, most of the anti-vaccine protesters are concerned with the preservatives, not the vaccine itself. Wouldn't it shut them up if we just changed the preservative to something more "natural?" Or at least told them we did?

Adding insult to injury!

As parents it's not about being dumb enough. It's about what to do, practically, when your child shows visible signs of sickness and unusual behaviour at a very early age.

There are two factors at play:
1. Managing the Incident(s) - the behavioural problems / the symptoms.
2. Managing the Problem - root cause analysis, wider epidemic.

1. We looked at all kinds of ways to deal with the effects and impact of autism (Aspergers and ADHD) including school-bullying (and teacher ignorance) that was a result of the disorder and eventually, with guidance from other parents (a process called Incident Matching) found that a diet free from gluten, casein, additives, preservatives and colourants helped to manage behaviour.

A process not made any easier due to the lack of NHS support i.e. a lengthy (and somewhat dehumanising) process to get an official diagnosis.

This is completely aside from the question of 'cause'... it's all about 'effects'.

2. This is where the specialists come in and at the time there was very little knowledge / information coming from the professionals.

Whenever there is no official word from the specialists, speculation runs riot.

We attended conference after conference. Lots of scientists, researchers and doctors there.

We saw the debunked research that had said no link to mercury and then the debunking of the debunking etc.
i.e. no mercury found in autistic children's hair and stool samples then evidence to show that of course, there wouldn't be because that was the problem (the mercury staying in the body) etc etc.

We saw the Privacy law changed in the UK just in time for Tony Blair not to have to reveal whether his new baby had had the MMR.

We saw the leaked email from a member of the FDA advising his son not to let the new grandchild get the MMR.

None of this made us anti-vaccers but bear in mind that we both were born in the years that the Thalidomide problem surfaced... in fact, my mother was offered it and refused... so we know that mistakes can be made.

Nor does it make us conspiracy theoryists.

Just stressed parents attempting to handle something unplanned for.


I liken it to when at work, people start saying "the network's down again". If the IT guys are not quick with a proper diagnosis, people will speculate or assume.
Speaking as an ex-network guy, I can tell you that it's never, ever the network but hey, once a meme starts... Dodgy

The science community was slow off the mark, doctors (who are essentially the service desk (no offence intended , Mark F)) often misdiagnosed (either way) and no real help or financial assistance was forthcoming.

This is human nature at work, no more, no less.

No judgement, no condemnation.

:can't think of an appropriate emoticon to end this:

Thanks for reading.

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11-12-2013, 05:25 PM
RE: Anti-vaccination
(03-12-2013 11:36 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  When I was a believer my pastors kid suffered from autism. Him and his wife were conviced that it was vaccination that caused his autism and I bought into that. When I had my own kids and it was time to see the doctor almost always me and my wife would be torn a new one because we delayed the vaccinations in our boys. Lately I have come across a couple of articles in Scientific American that speak to this issue. I had a bit of a discussion with my wife and cousin in regards to this but I had nothing more to offer than "scientists have done many studies and have overwhelmingly determined that vaccination is not a factor in autism" that's all I have any of you mind chiming in with more info I could share in that discussion. (My cousin is big into conspiracy theories) thanks

You also have to realize the original British Dr, Andrew Wakefield, who came up with this connection had his medical licence removed and is unable to practice in the UK. He's a gastroenterology researcher and based his vaccine autism belief on only 12 children. I believe he accepted some money under the table for his research. Pretty much a egotistical jerk.

There is a book called The Panic Virus by Seth Mnookin about the rise of this rumor. It's very, very detailed and well written.

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“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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11-12-2013, 05:48 PM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2013 06:04 PM by Free Thought.)
RE: Anti-vaccination
(03-12-2013 01:02 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  There is an outbreak in my province for measles right now, it is spreading through the antivax communities like crazy. They thought the 'herd' would protect them, but sadly they've just made themselves the weakest link. Some are STILL promoting antivax despite this occurrence. That's their choice I guess. However what really irks me is when they say it doesn't concern me so why do I care what they choose. They do not realize the impact of carrying measles or other virus's has on vulnerable groups such as my daughter who can't have her booster yet or my nephew who was born last week or my friends children who are legitimately allergic to vaccine ingredients. She WISHES she could have the opportunity to vaccinate her children because anti vaccers are compromising her children's chances by making the 'herd' weaker and weaker.

Arguing with an anti-vac is not easy despite the copious amounts of evidence for it.

The irony on anti-vaccers depending on herd immunity is just too rich! And dangerous.
I don't think they understood that they opened themselves up to viruses and the like, and it doing so actually opened up the rest of the 'herd', at least to the point of exposing those who cannot be vaccinated.

... Can we take all the anti-vaccers and dump them on a bunch of uninhabited islands please? Keep their danger located to themselves.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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11-12-2013, 05:58 PM
RE: Anti-vaccination
I think I missed some responses to my response the other day. (Whoops?)

(09-12-2013 07:23 AM)BnW Wrote:  I know someone who is alway fired up about the "flouride-in-the-water thing". What is it, exactly? What are these people afraid of? That it's some kind of mind-control agent?

I think they think it is a mind control agent regardless of dosage. I've also seen people claim it speeds the aging process, causes cancer, and/or kills brain and liver cells. Even if it does any of that I would imagine breathing car exhaust (and a million other things) have the same effect over decades.


(09-12-2013 09:22 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Adding insult to injury!

I'm not trying to add insult to injury. I'm saying that because the preservatives are blamed for these ill effects, just change the preservatives used in vaccines.

Even if they aren't doing any harm (which I personally believe) everyone who thinks they are will be happy. The skeptics will also be happy that they don't have to hear the anti-vacc complaining. It's win/win.

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11-12-2013, 06:25 PM
RE: Anti-vaccination
(11-12-2013 05:58 PM)Cephalotus Wrote:  I'm not trying to add insult to injury. I'm saying that because the preservatives are blamed for these ill effects, just change the preservatives used in vaccines.

That's just one more problem. Providers of vaccines have changed the preservatives multiple times. The opposition simply finds something wrong with the new preservatives. I'm not an immunologist, but I don't think it's possible to make a vaccine that's preservative free. I think the preservative is part of the mechanism. Not sure though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversies (scroll down to the Thiomersal section)

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