Any biologist in here?
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02-09-2012, 10:43 PM
Any biologist in here?
I've got a couple questions.

Is injury the main influence in evolution?

When we injure ourselves the body knows how to patch it up right? Do to our DNA. The blueprint on how to rebuild it.


Which leads me to my 2nd question.

Is there some form of memory in DNA that says. "OK, the lifeform was hurt there." And that memory uses that in the procreation process?

Forgive me if these seem like stupid questions (I'm not a biologist) but I think I'm on to something here.

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02-09-2012, 11:42 PM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2012 11:46 PM by Phaedrus.)
RE: Any biologist in here?
Nope. Injury plays no role in evolution, unless some type of injury is widespread in a population and causes a disadvantage to reproduction.

DNA, RNA, and epigenetics are a fascinating subject and the storage of information they represent is sometimes "called" a memory, but what you describe does not in any way match our current understanding of the genome.



I recommend starting here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Then moving up to here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics

Then going here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evol..._synthesis




Not trying to be rude by pointing you to Wikipedia, but a comprehensive understanding of these topics is necessary if you're really, truly interested in why your idea doesn't work.




.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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03-09-2012, 12:09 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2012 12:12 AM by Phaedrus.)
RE: Any biologist in here?
In short:
(wiki each of the bolded words)

Evolution is the change of allele frequencies within a population as described by population genetics, driven by natural selection, sexual selection, and genetic drift, with the raw genetic information that these processes act on being provided by random mutation in the organisms' genome through a variety of errors caused in DNA transcription in the organisms' gametes during meiosis. The epigenome also provides a source of novelty for evolution to act on.


No magic DNA memory is required.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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03-09-2012, 05:58 AM
RE: Any biologist in here?
Injury can play a role in evolution, but may not be the MAIN influence in evolution. Here's a scenario where injury might play a role in natural selection. Consider a herd of goats living on an extremely rocky mountain. Strong, stable legs are required to move around the mountain. Those with weak legs are bound to fall, injuring themselves and possibly dying in the process, while those with strong legs move about easily and survive till sexual maturity, where they are able to pass on their genes to their offspring. The selection pressure is the environment, selecting against goats who have weak legs through injury.

There are various mechanisms for evolution, such as natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, artificial selection and biased mutation. However, for such mechanisms to work in the first place, we need genetic variation, which usually comes from mutations and genetic recombination in meiosis(formation of haploid cells such as sperm).

So, with regards to which is the main influence... it depends on the specific situation you wish to explore Smile

Regarding response to injury, it's more of cell signalling than "DNA memory". Even so, UNLESS the injury damages the DNA in the gametes, the injury will not affect the offspring.

Don't worry, these aren't stupid questions. In fact, its kind of thought provoking, raising a new possible way for evolution to occur Big Grin Hope these all helps.

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03-09-2012, 06:58 AM
RE: Any biologist in here?
(03-09-2012 05:58 AM)robotworld Wrote:  Injury can play a role in evolution, but may not be the MAIN influence in evolution. Here's a scenario where injury might play a role in natural selection. Consider a herd of goats living on an extremely rocky mountain. Strong, stable legs are required to move around the mountain. Those with weak legs are bound to fall, injuring themselves and possibly dying in the process, while those with strong legs move about easily and survive till sexual maturity, where they are able to pass on their genes to their offspring. The selection pressure is the environment, selecting against goats who have weak legs through injury.

There are various mechanisms for evolution, such as natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, artificial selection and biased mutation. However, for such mechanisms to work in the first place, we need genetic variation, which usually comes from mutations and genetic recombination in meiosis(formation of haploid cells such as sperm).

So, with regards to which is the main influence... it depends on the specific situation you wish to explore Smile

Regarding response to injury, it's more of cell signalling than "DNA memory". Even so, UNLESS the injury damages the DNA in the gametes, the injury will not affect the offspring.

Don't worry, these aren't stupid questions. In fact, its kind of thought provoking, raising a new possible way for evolution to occur Big Grin Hope these all helps.

That's not a clear or helpful statement; it implies something that isn't the case. It is not injury that plays a role, it is differential survival.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-09-2012, 07:01 AM
RE: Any biologist in here?
The things that happen to an individual in their lifetime don't get reflected in their DNA and don't get passed on to the next generation[1]. Giraffes don't get longer necks due to their parents having stretched theirs out over their lifetime. This is the "Lamarkian" idea that preceded Darwin's theory[2]. Darwin's model is that the genes that produced longer-necked giraffes simply meant that more of the individuals carrying those genes survived as a percentage of the overall early giraffe population. Those with genes (actually "alleles", which are the different available versions of a given gene) that produced shorter necks were less likely to produce offspring. Over time an genetic advantage that yielded only a few percent more offspring over time would come to dominate the population.

So... the environment drives a population towards having genes that are a good fit to the environment while genes that are a poor fit are weeded out. Animals with genes that are a good fit survive just a little better and pass those genes on to just a few more children on average over a long period of time compared to their siblings and cousins who have less suitable genes. Overall the population comes to be dominated by those most successful genes.

[1] ... in theory
[2] http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary...history_09

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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03-09-2012, 07:01 AM
RE: Any biologist in here?
(02-09-2012 10:43 PM)Atheist Chiefs fan! Wrote:  I've got a couple questions.

Is injury the main influence in evolution?

When we injure ourselves the body knows how to patch it up right? Do to our DNA. The blueprint on how to rebuild it.

Which leads me to my 2nd question.

Is there some form of memory in DNA that says. "OK, the lifeform was hurt there." And that memory uses that in the procreation process?

Forgive me if these seem like stupid questions (I'm not a biologist) but I think I'm on to something here.

No and no. DNA is not a blueprint, it is a recipe. There is no mechanism for changing or adding to the DNA based on injury to somatic cells.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-09-2012, 07:35 AM
RE: Any biologist in here?
Evolution in general does not have memory. The past evolutionary trajectory of any organism has no bearing on its subsequent evolution. A good example would be turtles. They went from water to land to water to land and some have gone back to water again.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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03-09-2012, 07:44 AM
RE: Any biologist in here?
(03-09-2012 12:09 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  In short:
(wiki each of the bolded words)

Evolution is the change of allele frequencies within a population as described by population genetics, driven by natural selection, sexual selection, and genetic drift, with the raw genetic information that these processes act on being provided by random mutation in the organisms' genome through a variety of errors caused in DNA transcription in the organisms' gametes during meiosis. The epigenome also provides a source of novelty for evolution to act on.
. That is a form of an evolution but to allow your knowledge to evolve, think of an evolution as a combining of colors. Ie... Red and yellow make an evolved color of the two.

You do have a fine question there and if a life reproduced with the change, it could pass onto the next generations and begin an evolution. Morons will tell you it is of a population but forget that a first must always make the difference.

Kind of like me on the forum.
Quote:No magic DNA memory is required.
. That is why claiming an evolution by the accepted concept is stupid.

Every cell division invokes an evolution, few of the changes are even observed.
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03-09-2012, 08:01 AM
RE: Any biologist in here?
Chas Wrote:That's not a clear or helpful statement; it implies something that isn't the case. It is not injury that plays a role, it is differential survival.

Good point there. Injury is only one of the many ways that affects the survival of an organism.

(03-09-2012 07:44 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  
(03-09-2012 12:09 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  In short:
(wiki each of the bolded words)

Evolution is the change of allele frequencies within a population as described by population genetics, driven by natural selection, sexual selection, and genetic drift, with the raw genetic information that these processes act on being provided by random mutation in the organisms' genome through a variety of errors caused in DNA transcription in the organisms' gametes during meiosis. The epigenome also provides a source of novelty for evolution to act on.
. That is a form of an evolution but to allow your knowledge to evolve, think of an evolution as a combining of colors. Ie... Red and yellow make an evolved color of the two.

You do have a fine question there and if a life reproduced with the change, it could pass onto the next generations and begin an evolution. Morons will tell you it is of a population but forget that a first must always make the difference.

Kind of like me on the forum.

The way you put it... it's kind of vague. Evolution is simply a change in allelic frequency in a population over a period of time. Genetic variation is required for evolution to happen, and there must be a selection pressure. Mating two different organisms to form an entirely new species, such as the mating of a lion and a tiger to form a liger, is more of speciation than evolution.

Quote:
Quote:No magic DNA memory is required.
. That is why claiming an evolution by the accepted concept is stupid.

Every cell division invokes an evolution, few of the changes are even observed.

What cell division? Are you referring to mitosis, meiosis or binary fission? Even though there is a change, there must be a selection pressure, in which that tiny change allows the organism to better survive, for evolution to occur.

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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