Anyone ever stop to think...

[Chas]

(29-05-2014 03:04 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  That is the tact nearly all atheists I have met take.

The "who gives a shit" point goes both ways. You don't have to read our books, and you don't have to watch our youtube channels. To my knowledge nobody is shoving atheism and skepticism down anybodies throats.

*tack

[Chas]

(29-05-2014 03:06 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  I could care less about religion. Creationism on the other hand I hate with a passion, and I want it to end(and if you knew me would know that statement is a hypocritical one.)

*couldn't

[Chas]

(30-05-2014 12:14 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  

(29-05-2014 02:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  Seriously dude? Ever read a history book or a newspaper?

I'm sorry, Chas, you're gonna have to spell it out for me.

Theocracies never go well. Ever.
States with state religions treat people unequally, if not abusively.

[Impulse]

(29-05-2014 01:48 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  So I've been doing a little thinking about all this stuff. I got to a point of thinking what's the point? What's the point of this whole atheism/theism thing. As atheists, most of us carry an air of arrogance like you see in the matrix. The ones that know what's going on that is.

Some atheists are arrogant. Some are arrogant only with arrogant theists. Some aren't arrogant at all. I disagree with "most" in your statement.

(29-05-2014 01:48 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  It seems all rather theoretical. I don't see any real life advantage being an atheist. We're not much better off than theists. All we do as atheists is argue. Shit. Is that it?

All we do is argue? I don't know about you, but I have a life aside from just being an atheist. Just kidding, I know that isn't what you meant. But what else is there to do specifically with atheism? It only exists because theism exists so arguing against theism is all there is to do with atheism. *shrugs*

(29-05-2014 01:48 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Is it really so bad being a theist? You believe in god, big deal so what? I'm talking mainly about those that were not abused in the name of religion. But as compared to the "regular" theist, what advantage do we have? Does this "advantage" warrant the attitude that we treat theists with?

Yeah I get that theists pose a threat to the education system to some degree. So as atheists we gotta fight to preserve the integrity of education. The average theist eats, sleeps and shits the same way we do. So what if they say a prayer before that meal or when they sleep? They're just as capable as any atheist.

In isolation, the average theist is not an issue assuming the average theist simply believes, worships, and bothers no one else about it. But, in reality, they aren't in isolation. Religions only thrive because they have "average" followers. Without those followers, the real problems - like suicide bombings, discrimination against gays, interference with political issues, etc. - wouldn't exist because the ones causing all the problems wouldn't have a leg to stand on. So, like it or not, even the average theists are part of the problem.

That doesn't mean we should go out of our way to target average believers and convince them they are delusional. I certainly wouldn't want to become the mirror image of Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on everyone's doors. But it does mean not avoiding those discussions when they are appropriate.

[WhiskeyDebates]

Conduct a thought experiment: Imagine that instead of the last 2000 years of superstition and theism we had 2000 years of skepticism and open scientific investigation. Which world would be better off?

That's why I don't like it. If you go person by person sure its fine. However in the long run as a method of thinking and viewing the world.....its demonstrably harmful both to the people at the time and to the future.

[BlackMason]

(30-05-2014 12:42 AM)Vosur Wrote:  

(30-05-2014 12:16 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  I'm raising an objection to the sense of superiority that most atheists have.

How do you know what "most" atheists do or don't have? It sounds like you're just talking out of your ass here.

It's from what I gather online. Most atheist sites suffer from that. Online presence may be a little vivacious.

(30-05-2014 11:16 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Conduct a thought experiment: Imagine that instead of the last 2000 years of superstition and theism we had 2000 years of skepticism and open scientific investigation. Which world would be better off?

I see what you're saying. For argument sake what are the chances that 2000 years of scepticism would cause a darwinian society to emerge. Now that would be an undesirable state of affairs.

[Peebothuhul]

(30-05-2014 11:29 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  I see what you're saying. For argument sake what are the chances that 2000 years of scepticism would cause a darwinian society to emerge. Now that would be an undesirable state of affairs.

Um...no...that does not follow.

If you're hinting at 'Eugenics' then such a thing emerged before the 2000 year period put forwards in one form with the Spartan practices. (Though I could be quite wrong).

Much cheers to all.

[BlackMason]

(30-05-2014 12:54 AM)Charis Wrote:  Not sure about a sense of superiority of "most" atheists. Certainly not above and beyond the sanctimonious piety that many Christians exude.

Yeah I was hoping this thread wouldn't be pulled down by people trying to deflect attention to theist. The focus is mainly supposed to be on atheists. It's interesting how quick we resort to finger pointing.

[Chas]

(30-05-2014 11:29 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  

(30-05-2014 12:42 AM)Vosur Wrote:  How do you know what "most" atheists do or don't have? It sounds like you're just talking out of your ass here.

It's from what I gather online. Most atheist sites suffer from that. Online presence may be a little vivacious.

(30-05-2014 11:16 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Conduct a thought experiment: Imagine that instead of the last 2000 years of superstition and theism we had 2000 years of skepticism and open scientific investigation. Which world would be better off?

I see what you're saying. For argument sake what are the chances that 2000 years of scepticism would cause a darwinian society to emerge. Now that would be an undesirable state of affairs.

What the actual fuck is a "darwinian society"? You sound like a crypto-creationist.

[kim]

(29-05-2014 02:45 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I agree with you for the most part that religion in America is relatively harmless... for now.

(30-05-2014 10:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  Theocracies never go well. Ever.
States with state religions treat people unequally, if not abusively.

^^YES^^

For now... are two very important words.
An individual lives for now... to create a desired present.
A collective of individuals live for now... to create a desired future.

It's very possible as an individual to live for now, while also creating a desired future. One has to be fully aware of what kind of desired future one wants and stick to it... don't hop onto the community bandwagon just because it seems to be the only bandwagon for miles around. One doesn't have to join anything to make a difference.

Theists do it all the time and they are fully aware that they desire a future which excludes (among other things) dissent. In fact, they state everything right up front - it is their entire conceptual mind frame. That is why indoctrination is so important... it's why arguments are scripted... it's why reason and critical thinking are dismissed as interference... nothing must change.

The question for the pondering atheist becomes, how do I want my future or the future beyond me? An answer might be to look the theist straight in the eye and say, see... I can do it too. Then proceed to flourish in your life without god.

Be (Live) the change you wish to see in the world. ~ Pretty sure Gandhi was a theist. He's dead so, it's ok to steal from him.