Anyone ever stop to think...
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30-05-2014, 05:29 PM
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
(30-05-2014 04:40 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 04:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  You said "That is the tact nearly all atheists I have met take. "
The sentence is ungrammatical and semanticly incoherent.
If you meant that those atheists use tact in discussion, then you should say that.

Your sentence says "nearly all atheists I have met take that tact." Make sense? No.

One uses tact, one takes a tack.

Well now you are mincing the finer points of semantics, not grammer. Grammatically you can 'take' any noun you like. Maybe tack would be more clear in that case. Meh, I think we all know what I meant.

Only after you explained what you meant. Your original sentence didn't have that meaning.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-05-2014, 05:33 PM
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
(30-05-2014 05:10 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 04:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  You said "That is the tact nearly all atheists I have met take. "
The sentence is ungrammatical and semanticly incoherent.
If you meant that those atheists use tact in discussion, then you should say that.

Your sentence says "nearly all atheists I have met take that tact." Make sense? No.

One uses tact, one takes a tack.

Actually, on further reflection I am not satisfied with that.

It is worth noting that the offending term here is not "tact" as you have pointed out, it is the verb usage of "take". You are asserting that the verb "take" is ill applied and obfuscates the meaning of the sentence. I would agree that the term "take" in this context is ambiguous, but still very parsable. Take can be a synonym for the verb "choose", as in "take a pick". You can use the term "take" to apply not only to physical things but abstract concepts, like "take justice". In that way "take", meaning to choose an abstract thing "tact", from a choice of one or more "tacts", is an appropriate use of the term.

I would agree that I had I formed the sentence this way

"Nearly all atheists I have met choose that tact ".

then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Tact is preciously the term I meant, and it better reflects my intended meaning than "tack".

On further reflection, you have confused the meaning of the phrase "take a tack".
You apparently heard it as "tact" and think it means something it doesn't. Your usage makes no sense.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-05-2014, 05:35 PM
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
(30-05-2014 05:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 05:10 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Actually, on further reflection I am not satisfied with that.

It is worth noting that the offending term here is not "tact" as you have pointed out, it is the verb usage of "take". You are asserting that the verb "take" is ill applied and obfuscates the meaning of the sentence. I would agree that the term "take" in this context is ambiguous, but still very parsable. Take can be a synonym for the verb "choose", as in "take a pick". You can use the term "take" to apply not only to physical things but abstract concepts, like "take justice". In that way "take", meaning to choose an abstract thing "tact", from a choice of one or more "tacts", is an appropriate use of the term.

I would agree that I had I formed the sentence this way

"Nearly all atheists I have met choose that tact ".

then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Tact is preciously the term I meant, and it better reflects my intended meaning than "tack".

On further reflection, you have confused the meaning of the phrase "take a tack".
You apparently heard it as "tact" and think it means something it doesn't. Your usage makes no sense.

Define terms please.
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30-05-2014, 08:17 PM
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
Corrected for Grammar.

(29-05-2014 01:48 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  So, I've been doing a little thinking about all this stuff and I got to a point of thinking, what's the point?

What is the point in having a outlook in having knowledge, opinions or beliefs of how the universe came to be and what the meaning of life, the universe and everything is? OH! Yeah! I could not possibly imagine a point to all of that.

Quote: most of us carry an air of arrogance like you see in the matrix. The ones that know what's going on that is.

I beg your pardon? OH! and being a Christian, claiming that a being who is beyond time and space, who is all good, all knowing and all powerful who created the universe in six literal days has given us sooo much information about him that we can develop "personal" relationships with such a being?

Every Christian can answer what gods "truth" is on every possible subject. Whether or not god wants us to wear condoms, who we fuck, how we do it, where we do it, when we fuck, claiming that they know gods favorite color, what time he sits down for dinner and what god's favorite magazine is and what god doesn't want us to eat on a mother fucking friday. Basically what I am saying is that Christians claim to know every possible detail about this deity of theirs when you ask questions about "him" and can answer them confidently enough to say this stuff. Christians do not want to admit it, or muslims, or jews. But they really DO know every single detail about a being powerful and smart enough to create the universe which is the difference in intelligence comparable to Stephen hawking and a single cell organism.

But, OH yeah! Of course you would all know every possible detail about such a thing. NO! My Christian and atheist friends. If a being like that did exist. 100% of without a doubt, We would not even be able to begin to comprehend a single IOTA!!!!!!! of a fucking clue what a being like that would look like, be like, think like, or act like.

That being would be so far above us, they would undoubtedly have no clue we even existed. Even if it did, it certainly would not give a flying fuck about even the tiniest portion of how we run our lives or what we are doing on this speck of a planet he gives even less about. THAT my friends is Arrogance and Pretentiousness rolled into once.

Quote: I don't see any real life advantage being an atheist. We're not much better off than theists. All we do as atheists is argue. Shit. Is that it?


EVERY human being on the planet argues, Its not just about religion. The real life advantage is we do not waste our time on false hopes, loosing our money to false hopes and being brainwashed into stupid Cult crap like that.

Religion, by nature: is destructive. It has halted scientific advances completely for hundreds of years for certain things. It has slowed Stem cells and cloning and many other important medical research and caused MASSIVE damage to families because of its teachings. Not to mention is the cause for 90% of all the racism and war on our planet. Atheism is no more of a religion than OFF is a T.V channel. If we counted atheism as a religion, I dare say: It is the most peaceful religion the world has ever known.

Quote:Is it really so bad being a theist? You believe in god, big deal so what? I'm talking mainly about those that were not abused in the name of religion. But as compared to the "regular" theist, what advantage do we have? Does this "advantage" warrant the attitude that we treat theists with?
1. No such thing as someone not abused by religion.
2. Treat them? Treat them with what? By challenging their beliefs with logic, science and progression of human society? I do not understand? We always stand by what we believe in and change what we believe in when new evidence is compelling enough to convince us so: Why not them?

Quote: Yeah I get that theists pose a threat to the education system to some degree. So as atheists we gotta fight to preserve the integrity of education. The average theist eats, sleeps and shits the same way we do. So what if they say a prayer before that meal or when they sleep? They're just as capable as any atheist.


It is really not the prayer that does anything wrong. Its the context of the fucked up religion they are a part of. It the religion was far more logical, not abusive and did not brainwash people using fear and whatnot, than we would probably ignore it. Sort of like how some of the smaller religions get ignored mostly. Like Shinto or Taoism or voodoo or whatever.

Quote:*EDIT*
It seems necessary for me to add the following for clarity:

I'm talking about the attitude that atheists typically convey online.

I'm talking about the AVERAGE THEIST and not the fundie types Christian or otherwise.

Since I'm taking about the average theist, please don't post about them trying to change laws and shit. I doubt the average theist even cares bout that shit.

Finally, I'm questioning whether the attitude online is justified by anything observable.


Well, I stand by what I said. Did not read but my points are still valid to both groups on each side still.


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30-05-2014, 09:29 PM
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
The biggest practical advantage is not having to deal with cognitive dissonance. Don't underestimate it. Even those who don't take the books literally still must believe in all kinds of things that their reason is telling them are highly unlikely to be true. They then feel required to pass on this dissonance to their children, which is very uncomfortable, especially when kids ask insightful questions.

Then there are the rules of living that even moderates feel they must ascribe to. Like dissonance, many of these require them to overcome their biological tendencies. They also require that they judge those who don't follow the rules.

In general those who are most comfortable as theists are those who don't experience dissonance due to their limited critical thinking skills. This is where the so-called intellectual arrogance might creep in. Is it arrogance if it's true?
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30-05-2014, 11:07 PM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2014 12:19 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
(30-05-2014 05:35 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 05:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  On further reflection, you have confused the meaning of the phrase "take a tack".
You apparently heard it as "tact" and think it means something it doesn't. Your usage makes no sense.

Define terms please.

"Tack" in the context here is originally a sailing term, meaning the alignment of a sailing vessel with respect to the current wind direction. It has a couple of different definitions within that parameter, but "taking a tack", or "taking a different tack", means turning the vessel (and matching the configuration of the sails) in a different direction with respect to the wind. There is "port tack" (wind hitting the port or left side of the sails) and "starboard tack", and the act of "tacking" means changing between the two, usually when sailing into the wind (with the wind behind the vessel it is called "gybing" (rhymes with "thriving" (EDIT: actually, "bribing" would be a better example)), but both tacking and gybing are examples of "changing ones tack" or "taking a different tack"). There might be some confusion or conflation with the word "tactic", as a guess, as in "taking [up] another tactic". This is not the case with the use of the word "tack", though. "Taking [another/a different] tack" means "changing one's direction or approach/ taking a different approach".

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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30-05-2014, 11:28 PM
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
(30-05-2014 02:51 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 04:30 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Not having superstitions shoved down our throats and those of our children is pretty high up there.

I hate it when people break up posts like this and respond in piecemeal fashion.

That's not piecemael It's point-by point.


Quote: You've taken what I've said out of context as a result.

I highly doubt that, but if you really think I have, then explain why and how.



Quote:Consequently your response doesn't fit.


Um this is where you might have provided examples/explanations and clarifications, instead of bald assertions. Or simply answered point-by-point like everyone else does with everyone elses responses.


[quot]e Your entire post is like this. I don't have the stamina to respond to posts like this as I'm sure you understand.[/quote]


Okay, but really, your OP is sort of a mini Gish-Gallop, and the way to address a gish-gallop is to answer it point-by-point. If ya don't like that, then don't gish-gallop.


Quote:
(29-05-2014 04:30 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Non Sequitur.

I'm not sure why you're having trouble with the logic I'm making here.

I didn't say I was "having trouble with the logic [you're] making". I pointed out several thing I disagree with. Apparently some others saw what I was saying and agree with me, as that post garnered four "Likes", so it seems unlikely that I was incoherent or unclear.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-05-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
(30-05-2014 11:07 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 05:35 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Define terms please.

"Tack" in the context here is originally a sailing term, meaning the alignment of a sailing vessel with respect to the current wind direction. It has a couple of different definitions within that parameter, but "taking a tack", or "taking a different tack", means turning the vessel (and matching the configuration of the sails) in a different direction with respect to the wind. There is "port tack" (wind hitting the port or left side of the sails) and "starboard tack", and the act of "tacking" means changing between the two, usually when sailing into the wind (with the wind behind the vessel it is called "gybing" (rhymes with "thriving")). There might be some confusion or conflation with the word "tactic", as a guess, as in "taking [up] another tactic". This is not the case, though. "Taking [another/a different] tack" means "changing one's direction or approach/ taking a different approach".

Thank you.

That is indeed not the word I intended to use.

World English Dictionary
tact (tækt)

— n
1. a sense of what is fitting and considerate in dealing with others, so as to avoid giving offence or to win good will; discretion
2. skill or judgment in handling difficult or delicate situations; diplomacy

A much better word to describe dealing with or handling those of an opposing view. I emphatically stand by my word choice.
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30-05-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
(30-05-2014 11:58 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 12:54 AM)Charis Wrote:  Not sure about a sense of superiority of "most" atheists. Certainly not above and beyond the sanctimonious piety that many Christians exude.

Yeah I was hoping this thread wouldn't be pulled down by people trying to deflect attention to theist. The focus is mainly supposed to be on atheists. It's interesting how quick we resort to finger pointing.

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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-05-2014, 11:37 PM
RE: Anyone ever stop to think...
omg, I just burst out laughing, Taq!

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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