Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
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20-06-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
Chas seems pretty sure of himself lol Smile

Underground -- Iberia is on the map. There are plenty of signs of it and I've been there. Plus, I live in the British Isles. Plato's tale could have been a tale of either of those places plus many more. So what you are saying is either Plato's generations-old account, which was undoubtedly fragmented through time, is either spot on or entirely fictional?

And the 19th Century is recent, yes. Remember we're talking about a city from the Bronze Age which people have been talking about ever since. F
For most of that time it's been considered nothing more than legend.

And as I have said, there ARE other accounts of Atlantis in historical texts. In fact, they are often cited in books about Atlantis but I'm not much in the mood to trawl my books to give you an example, mainly because of this all-or-nothing approach you seem to have on the matter.

I don't know if Atlantis was an island at all. Imagine this.... a Somali slave escapes Africa and seeks asylum in America. Her arrives at Manhattan and, a gifted poet, begins to write about the skyscrapers and neon lights that surround him.

Now imagine he sends his story home in a postcard, and that that postcard gets handed around and down to every family member for three centuries - all the while this family never seeing or hearing of these things from anywhere else.

I bet it'd make one hell of a colossal story but would no doubt contain a shred of truth. All-or-nothing is helpful if you feel you need to rid yourself of the mystery.
Myself I quite enjoy a good mystery so I prefer to pick apart the postcard and question which, if any, pieces of the postcard contain a shred of truth.

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20-06-2014, 07:28 PM
RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
But we are not in the position of a Somali. We have many sources. We know Santorini blew off the face of the Earth. We know the methodology Plato used in the Dialogues. If there was a thriving wonderful state somewhere, there would be trade records all over the ancient world, in many places that could be used as verification. Where are all the trade records ?

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20-06-2014, 07:45 PM
Re: RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
(20-06-2014 07:22 PM)barcelonic Wrote:  Chas seems pretty sure of himself lol Smile

Underground -- Iberia is on the map. There are plenty of signs of it and I've been there. Plus, I live in the British Isles. Plato's tale could have been a tale of either of those places plus many more. So what you are saying is either Plato's generations-old account, which was undoubtedly fragmented through time, is either spot on or entirely fictional?

And the 19th Century is recent, yes. Remember we're talking about a city from the Bronze Age which people have been talking about ever since. F
For most of that time it's been considered nothing more than legend.

And as I have said, there ARE other accounts of Atlantis in historical texts. In fact, they are often cited in books about Atlantis but I'm not much in the mood to trawl my books to give you an example, mainly because of this all-or-nothing approach you seem to have on the matter.

I don't know if Atlantis was an island at all. Imagine this.... a Somali slave escapes Africa and seeks asylum in America. Her arrives at Manhattan and, a gifted poet, begins to write about the skyscrapers and neon lights that surround him.

Now imagine he sends his story home in a postcard, and that that postcard gets handed around and down to every family member for three centuries - all the while this family never seeing or hearing of these things from anywhere else.

I bet it'd make one hell of a colossal story but would no doubt contain a shred of truth. All-or-nothing is helpful if you feel you need to rid yourself of the mystery.
Myself I quite enjoy a good mystery so I prefer to pick apart the postcard and question which, if any, pieces of the postcard contain a shred of truth.

The story wasn't obscure like your analogy. Atlantis was supposed to be a powerful force battling Greece at the time according to Plato. If there was a real location, as a Troy, it wouldn't be a vast powerhouse like described.

And you're confusing concepts stated with what you think matters. Chad is right that there's no other text mentioning Atlantis BEFORE Plato... You saying other texts mention it is irrelevant of that fact. This were made after and based on or in contrast to Plato.

Beyond that, other major flaws to historical accuracy of the story is how Plato hypes Athens as having been more powerful a nation prior when most forms of evidence counter that as possible.

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20-06-2014, 07:50 PM
RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
Seriously. Read the Timaeus. It's pretty clearly set up as allegory.

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20-06-2014, 07:58 PM
RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
(20-06-2014 07:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  But we are not in the position of a Somali. We have many sources. We know Santorini blew off the face of the Earth. We know the methodology Plato used in the Dialogues. If there was a thriving wonderful state somewhere, there would be trade records all over the ancient world, in many places that could be used as verification. Where are all the trade records ?

My apologies I should have made my analogy clearer.... we are not the Somali - Plato was. Plato was a smart guy but he was talking of something that he'd overheard when he was a young child. It might as well be chinese whispers. If there's any more than 5% truth to his story I'd be gobsmacked.

But if there were no truth in it at all I'd be even more gobsmacked. Even Robin Hood is now believed to have an etiology of its own.

And guys I've a copy of Timaeus and Critias and i've read both countless times. I, as with many others who've done the same, do not agree that it is "clearly" an allegory. If that were the case there'd be very little to discuss and yet people are still researching this today after all these years.

Posting your interpretations is what this is supposed to be about, but presenting them as though they are 'clear' is reminiscent to me of a certain group none of us belong to hmm lol Smile

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20-06-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
(20-06-2014 07:58 PM)barcelonic Wrote:  
(20-06-2014 07:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  But we are not in the position of a Somali. We have many sources. We know Santorini blew off the face of the Earth. We know the methodology Plato used in the Dialogues. If there was a thriving wonderful state somewhere, there would be trade records all over the ancient world, in many places that could be used as verification. Where are all the trade records ?

My apologies I should have made my analogy clearer.... we are not the Somali - Plato was. Plato was a smart guy but he was talking of something that he'd overheard when he was a young child. It might as well be chinese whispers. If there's any more than 5% truth to his story I'd be gobsmacked.

But if there were no truth in it at all I'd be even more gobsmacked. Even Robin Hood is now believed to have an etiology of its own.

And guys I've a copy of Timaeus and Critias and i've read both countless times. I, as with many others who've done the same, do not agree that it is "clearly" an allegory. If that were the case there'd be very little to discuss and yet people are still researching this today after all these years.

Posting your interpretations is what this is supposed to be about, but presenting them as though they are 'clear' is reminiscent to me of a certain group none of us belong to hmm lol Smile

Show me the ancient maps and all the OTHER ancient records that talk about such an obviously large power. I'm a born skeptic. The picture makes no sense. Why weren't all the ancients referencing it, talking about visiting it, who lived there, and ONE famous person who left and lived elsewhere ? Name ONE set of well known warriors who were famous from there, known all over the Mediterranean, just like ALL the other ancient powers.

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20-06-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
(20-06-2014 07:58 PM)barcelonic Wrote:  My apologies I should have made my analogy clearer.... we are not the Somali - Plato was. Plato was a smart guy but he was talking of something that he'd overheard when he was a young child.

Plato is not talking about something he heard about.

Plato is having a character in a dialogue relate a rhetorically convenient story.

(20-06-2014 07:58 PM)barcelonic Wrote:  It might as well be chinese whispers. If there's any more than 5% truth to his story I'd be gobsmacked.

Then why ask?

But sure, Santorini, not to mention the other dark age upheavals, are plenty cultural background for "lost cities/civilizations".

(20-06-2014 07:58 PM)barcelonic Wrote:  But if there were no truth in it at all I'd be even more gobsmacked. Even Robin Hood is now believed to have an etiology of its own.

And guys I've a copy of Timaeus and Critias and i've read both countless times. I, as with many others who've done the same, do not agree that it is "clearly" an allegory. If that were the case there'd be very little to discuss and yet people are still researching this today after all these years.

Posting your interpretations is what this is supposed to be about, but presenting them as though they are 'clear' is reminiscent to me of a certain group none of us belong to hmm lol Smile

Yeah, but the actual details of the Atlantis are pretty much impossible.

I mean, you might as well suppose a mass migration of millions of people across the Sinai; not that that sounds like any particular groups we might know of...

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20-06-2014, 09:02 PM
RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
Quote:If that were the case there'd be very little to discuss and yet people are still researching this today after all these years.

"People" are still researching ancient aliens, too.

[Image: ancient-aliens.jpg]

So what? As long as they can get people to buy their books it remains a very lucrative scam.

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21-06-2014, 04:32 AM
RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
Cljr -- Yes Plato is recalling a story he overheard from a group of elderly men when he was a child, one of whom is believed to have been Plato's grandfather. The tale actually belongs to Solon, who was told this from an Egyptian priest long before the first destruction of the Great Library, and so the Egyptians are said to have been unprecendented keepers of historical record. The story may well have originated a thousand years before Plato's time for all we know.



(20-06-2014 08:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-06-2014 07:58 PM)barcelonic Wrote:  My apologies I should have made my analogy clearer.... we are not the Somali - Plato was. Plato was a smart guy but he was talking of something that he'd overheard when he was a young child. It might as well be chinese whispers. If there's any more than 5% truth to his story I'd be gobsmacked.

But if there were no truth in it at all I'd be even more gobsmacked. Even Robin Hood is now believed to have an etiology of its own.

And guys I've a copy of Timaeus and Critias and i've read both countless times. I, as with many others who've done the same, do not agree that it is "clearly" an allegory. If that were the case there'd be very little to discuss and yet people are still researching this today after all these years.

Posting your interpretations is what this is supposed to be about, but presenting them as though they are 'clear' is reminiscent to me of a certain group none of us belong to hmm lol Smile

Show me the ancient maps and all the OTHER ancient records that talk about such an obviously large power. I'm a born skeptic. The picture makes no sense. Why weren't all the ancients referencing it, talking about visiting it, who lived there, and ONE famous person who left and lived elsewhere ? Name ONE set of well known warriors who were famous from there, known all over the Mediterranean, just like ALL the other ancient powers.

This is kind of what I'm getting at. There's no need to believe that Atlantis were powerful, or that they had a great navy, or that they were an Island, or that they worshipped Poseidon or in fact any other detail.
All I've been saying is that the story had SOME etiological basis and was not meant solely as an allegory.

There may have been no destruction and the city may not have been destroyed - two or more legends may have merged over time. The fact is we just can't know any of this for certain and never will - my point though is only that it was never meant as a deliberate fiction or allegory by Plato and that just like every other tale we here do not believe, there was some original event or place which kicked off the game of chinese whispers.

And why be interested? Well for one thing the Great Library is said to have held thousands of years worth of human historical record and we lost pretty much all of it. That will bother me until the day I die. I'd like to know more about all of history's dark ages, or even just to hypothesise. The mystery of how people lived back then interests me.

Think of Plato's Atlantis as a fairy tale if you like, but I simply do not believe it was conjured to illustrate a utopian way of life. As with the Somali account the utopian way of life would have been simply one more embellishment on a tale that would have felt as old to the Athenians as it does to us today.

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21-06-2014, 06:10 AM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2014 07:02 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Anyone here interested in Plato's Atlantis?
(21-06-2014 04:32 AM)barcelonic Wrote:  This is kind of what I'm getting at. There's no need to believe that Atlantis WAS powerful, or that they had a great navy, or that they were an Island, or that they worshiped Poseidon or in fact any other detail.
All I've been saying is that the story had SOME etiological basis and was not meant solely as an allegory.

There may have been no destruction and the city may not have been destroyed - two or more legends may have merged over time. The fact is we just can't know any of this for certain and never will - my point though is only that it was never meant as a deliberate fiction or allegory by Plato and that just like every other tale we here do not believe, there was some original event or place which kicked off the game of chinese whispers.

And why be interested? Well for one thing the Great Library is said to have held thousands of years worth of human historical record and we lost pretty much all of it. That will bother me until the day I die. I'd like to know more about all of history's dark ages, or even just to hypothesise. The mystery of how people lived back then interests me.

Think of Plato's Atlantis as a fairy tale if you like, but I simply do not believe it was conjured to illustrate a utopian way of life. As with the Somali account the utopian way of life would have been simply one more embellishment on a tale that would have felt as old to the Athenians as it does to us today.

No. If you're really interested in REAL ancient history, then learn the METHODS of REAL historians. Using your methodology, ANY fairy tale would be indistinguishable from reality, and ANY speculation would have to be accepted, as you have NO METHODOLOGY, and no real standards. Yes you would have had to believe precisely that they were a great REAL power, if they were actually to pose a REAL threat to the Athenians. Yes the Library at Alexandria was destroyed, but it was not the only place that held records. IF there really had been a city that met the criteria presented as Plato's Atlantis many of the other locations in the ancient Mediterranean would have records of going there, names of it's officials, families, and legendary past. There is nada. Zilch. We have a LOT of people coming here with their pet little theories about things. Just because we are skeptics they think we buy ANYTHING unusual. Your theory has NO HISTORICAL basis, and you have presented no EVIDENCE. Sorry. It's bullshit. It doesn't pass ONE test of historicity. There IS no evidence. Possible conflation of a few stories does not a REAL CITY make. There is no evidence for a REAL city, that was big enough to pose a threat to Atlantis. We CAN "know", because REAL historical methods have proven over time to be REAL. Speculation, is not a REAL method.

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