Anyone still undecided?
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18-09-2016, 09:30 PM
RE: Anyone still undecided?
(18-09-2016 09:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-09-2016 06:22 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  My problem with Bernie supporters is most of them are acting like petulant children. They spout off their undying love and loyalty for this guy and after he loses they show their loyalty was paper thin. The guy gets most of the platform he wants and tells his supporters they have one candidate to choose to get as close to what they want as possible. If they trusted him in the primaries, why do they now tell him to fuck off when he says you must vote for Hillary? SMH.
It might have something to do with him saying that you shouldn't listen to him when he tells you to vote a certain way earlier this year. He said that you should make these decisions for yourself and that it's up to Hillary to convince his supporters of her merits (see below). Another contributing factor could be that the changes Bernie was able to make to the Democratic platform are in no way binding. Many of his supporters see it as an empty victory because nothing obligates Hillary to enact those changes once elected. They trust Bernie, but they don't trust Hillary and rightly so. She's been lying to the American people about her e-mail scandal for over a year. You would have to be very gullible to believe anything she promises you on the campaign trail.



I'd buy your argument if that video were the last thing he ever said about her. It's not, and if they trust him, then that trust should not stop with the primaries. If he explains to them that she is the best and most qualified candidate and their only shot at seeing those ideas implemented, then they should trust him.

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19-09-2016, 12:55 AM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2016 01:38 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Anyone still undecided?
(18-09-2016 06:22 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(18-09-2016 06:18 PM)Dom Wrote:  Bernie is desperately trying to keep Trump out of office. I bet it's destroying him to see what is happening now.

My problem with Bernie supporters is most of them are acting like petulant children. They spout off their undying love and loyalty for this guy and after he loses they show their loyalty was paper thin. The guy gets most of the platform he wants and tells his supporters they have one candidate to choose to get as close to what they want as possible. If they trusted him in the primaries, why do they now tell him to fuck off when he says you must vote for Hillary? SMH.

I hope you don't mind a non-Murikan interjecting but (as Vosur has set the precedent) I'm going to anyway.

From the outside, I'm not seeing the independents / social-democrats in the same way as you allude to above.

Implicit in your comment was an element of identity-politics / idolatry. But why are independents not affiliated to a party? Because they don't identify ... they are issues-based voters.

They had a candidate who inspired love and loyalty but not in the 'disciple' sense but because of what he was saying - his policies.

Even then, they may have been swayed by some but not all of his policies. For example, in my view, he had the best economic plan but I thought his foreign policy (e.g. anti-TPP) short-sighted.

On paper, the policies have influenced the Democrat's platform but that's where the trust-problem comes in, as Vosur mentioned.

Here's my analysis of Bernie's endorsement speech which highlights some of the reasons why people might be dubious.

Girl_nails

Edited to add:
There was a 'reach-out' moment at the convention that was a missed opportunity.

When Silverman told Bernie supporters to grow up (or words to that effect) Al Franken could have countered that with empathy i.e. "No Sarah, you're wrong. Do you remember what it was like to feel cheated by the Supreme Court out of an Al Gore victory? Well, that's how our friends are feeling now. They don't need ridicule, they need a goddamn hug!"

Or something like that.

Yes

Also:
(18-09-2016 06:17 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  ...
Did you know Jill Stein thinks wifi gives children cancer? And supports anti-vaxxers? Did I narrow your choice? Thumbsup

The comments that I have read seem to be less about Wifi per se and more about the way the FDA is swayed by lobbyists... meaning that she doesn't trust any official line. So that's scepticism. In this case, ill-informed scepticsim.

Snopes regarding vaccinations: False

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19-09-2016, 01:05 AM
RE: Anyone still undecided?
(18-09-2016 12:43 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I would have to think for a while to figure out who the Dems could have nominated who would have led me to believe Trump is the person better able to lead this country. Consider

David Duke.... who will probably get the nod in 2020.

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19-09-2016, 01:11 AM
RE: Anyone still undecided?
(18-09-2016 09:30 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'd buy your argument if that video were the last thing he ever said about her. It's not, and if they trust him, then that trust should not stop with the primaries. If he explains to them that she is the best and most qualified candidate and their only shot at seeing those ideas implemented, then they should trust him.
I don't blame his supporters considering that he told the audience at one of his rallies earlier this year that he thinks Clinton is unqualified because of criticisms X, Y and Z, none of which have become invalid simply because she won the Democratic nomination. She still has the same voting record he criticized, she is still being funded by the same corporate interests that he lamented about, she is still part of the political establishment. What he needs to do is explain why he suddenly believes her to be qualified because from where many of his supporters and I are standing, nothing about her has changed.

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19-09-2016, 07:13 AM
RE: Anyone still undecided?
(19-09-2016 01:11 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-09-2016 09:30 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'd buy your argument if that video were the last thing he ever said about her. It's not, and if they trust him, then that trust should not stop with the primaries. If he explains to them that she is the best and most qualified candidate and their only shot at seeing those ideas implemented, then they should trust him.
I don't blame his supporters considering that he told the audience at one of his rallies earlier this year that he thinks Clinton is unqualified because of criticisms X, Y and Z, none of which have become invalid simply because she won the Democratic nomination. She still has the same voting record he criticized, she is still being funded by the same corporate interests that he lamented about, she is still part of the political establishment. What he needs to do is explain why he suddenly believes her to be qualified because from where many of his supporters and I are standing, nothing about her has changed.

He may have criticized her, but he never said she wasn't qualified to be president. She may have done things he was railing against, but that hardly makes her disqualified. And he is telling his supporters why she is qualified and why he is supporting her. If they trust him and his opinion, that should be enough.

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19-09-2016, 07:25 AM
RE: Anyone still undecided?
(19-09-2016 12:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(18-09-2016 06:22 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  My problem with Bernie supporters is most of them are acting like petulant children. They spout off their undying love and loyalty for this guy and after he loses they show their loyalty was paper thin. The guy gets most of the platform he wants and tells his supporters they have one candidate to choose to get as close to what they want as possible. If they trusted him in the primaries, why do they now tell him to fuck off when he says you must vote for Hillary? SMH.

I hope you don't mind a non-Murikan interjecting but (as Vosur has set the precedent) I'm going to anyway.

From the outside, I'm not seeing the independents / social-democrats in the same way as you allude to above.

Implicit in your comment was an element of identity-politics / idolatry. But why are independents not affiliated to a party? Because they don't identify ... they are issues-based voters.

They had a candidate who inspired love and loyalty but not in the 'disciple' sense but because of what he was saying - his policies.

Even then, they may have been swayed by some but not all of his policies. For example, in my view, he had the best economic plan but I thought his foreign policy (e.g. anti-TPP) short-sighted.

On paper, the policies have influenced the Democrat's platform but that's where the trust-problem comes in, as Vosur mentioned.

Here's my analysis of Bernie's endorsement speech which highlights some of the reasons why people might be dubious.

Girl_nails

Edited to add:
There was a 'reach-out' moment at the convention that was a missed opportunity.

When Silverman told Bernie supporters to grow up (or words to that effect) Al Franken could have countered that with empathy i.e. "No Sarah, you're wrong. Do you remember what it was like to feel cheated by the Supreme Court out of an Al Gore victory? Well, that's how our friends are feeling now. They don't need ridicule, they need a goddamn hug!"

Or something like that.

Yes

Also:
(18-09-2016 06:17 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  ...
Did you know Jill Stein thinks wifi gives children cancer? And supports anti-vaxxers? Did I narrow your choice? Thumbsup

The comments that I have read seem to be less about Wifi per se and more about the way the FDA is swayed by lobbyists... meaning that she doesn't trust any official line. So that's scepticism. In this case, ill-informed scepticsim.

Snopes regarding vaccinations: False

Thanks DLJ, as always a poignant response. I'm not so sure independents fall into the Bernie supporters camp because those supporters must be registered Democrat to vote in primaries. So, yes, Independents like to straddle the middle because they generally believe in certain things that each party embraces, so they don't fall on one side or the other. I also fail to believe Silverman's moment had any effect on the drop in Millenials' support for Hillary. She is a comedian and has zero influence on Hillary or Bernie. Her comments would have no impact on them. If she coddled them in that moment, does that translate into Hillary support? Of course not.

Thanks for the Stein info. My take from her anti-vaxxer stance wasn't that SHE was against vaccinations but that she empathizes with those who don't want to vaccinate, either forcefully or voluntarily. Her support in this manner could be interpreted as choosing to not vaccinate because of precedent for those who need to not vaccinate for health reasons. It's just a dangerous way to show she is anti-establishment, almost similarly to the way Trump is.

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19-09-2016, 01:15 PM
RE: Anyone still undecided?
I'm SORT of undecided... I'm 99% leaning Gary Johnson, despite probably being closer Stein (or Bernie) politically. I just can't swallow the Hillary pill. If she were to bow out and leave ANY OTHER DEMOCRAT in her place, I would vote for them in a heartbeat. Similarly, if she proves to be sicker than pneumonia, it would increase my odds of voting for her (in favor of her cabinet running things). Unfortunately, it's her, and the fact that she got away with careless mishandling of classified data (she still displays shocking ignorance on the matter, classified data doesn't have to be MARKED classified, it's the DATA that's classified, not the paper it's printed on, simply repeating it in an email doesn't make it UNCLASSIFIED!!). I understand why and accept that she isn't being prosecuted, not enough evidence to prove she spilled anything intentionally, and she gets to use that concussion as a convenient excuse... sigh. But it's still unfair, I hate the double standard.

I'm FULLY aware she's "not quite as bad" as Trump, and my Canada exit plan is in draft form in case Drumpf wins, but I simply can't vote for either of them in good conscious. I'd rather show support for a third party, especially since I'm in CA where there's literally no chance Drumpf wins. If I were in a battleground state, i.e. FL/PA/NC/OH (are those all of them?), I could potentially be convinced to vote for her, given that I'm literally terrified of Drumpf, but I'm in CA, so Gary Johnson will probably be my pick.

I think you should target your campaigning in states where it actually matters though, Florida in particular. That state is polling far too close for comfort right now.

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19-09-2016, 01:19 PM
RE: Anyone still undecided?
I've made my decision, but like a prostate exam it's something I NEED to do but don't particularly WANT to do.
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19-09-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: Anyone still undecided?
My (in)decision continues.

The only thing I know for certain is Trump doesn't deserve my vote. Since I don't live in a swing state, it's unlikely my vote matters much anyway.

In our current political system not every vote matters.


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19-09-2016, 01:53 PM
RE: Anyone still undecided?
I'm more concerned on where I'm going to want to live over who I want to vote for.

Seriously debating whether to move to Canada or somethin...

Consider

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