Anything Goes?
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27-04-2013, 08:11 AM
Anything Goes?
Hey.

So Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has been arrested. His brother died.

Did they "get what they deserve"?

There is some controversy surrounding the shooting of both brothers. I think the most controversial issue is that despite initial reports, Dzhokhar was unarmed when the found him in the boat.

CBC Wrote:Federal authorities now say the suspect was found unarmed in a boat in a backyard in Watertown, raising the question of how or why authorities started shooting. Rounds of ammunition could be heard firing by the hundreds who gathered nearby.
-CBC.ca

There's a school of thought that seems to suggest that terrorists get whatever comes to them (Guantanamo, rendition, torture, being shot to death) or that the people pursuing them are justified in using whatever tactic they choose. Is that reasonable? Is that prudent or is it going cowboy posse on them?

Some people maintain that terrorists retain their humanity despite what they've done. Others consider them rabid dogs to be put down. What do you think of them?

Ben Franklin once said that anyone who would trade a little freedom for a little security deserves neither and will lose both.

I can't help but feel that this has been the great debate of the last 12 years. I can't help but feel that we've traded in a lot of freedom and adherence to law in order to feel safer.

What are your thoughts on this matter?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Mattt
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27-04-2013, 08:28 AM
RE: Anything Goes?
So, is being bonded by the social contract the starting point of losing both freedom and security?

It's always a dilemma. We won't know which way to take until we see prominent bad consequences. And the best way just keeps changing with time.

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27-04-2013, 08:35 AM
RE: Anything Goes?
I don't think that we can just let them go free( and I'm not implying that you are either) but on the other hand I can't help but think about what this resolves. Revenge? Retribution? I'm not a victim of this crime and I don't know anybody from the attack but I wonder what purpose there is to going on this man hunt. While the message from the President was not solely oriented towards capture it seems like a good portion of it was. Capturing and/or killing the two criminals won't bring back the victims. I think that we focused on who did it over what we can do to help each other. At least that's what the media seemed to portray.

I was listening to a podcast , point of inquiry if memory serves and they had some expert on saying that giving public voice to these events and to these criminals is just fueling the fire. It's counterproductive to begin with.

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27-04-2013, 08:55 AM
RE: Anything Goes?
Hmm. Serendipity. Minutes after I wrote the OP, I stumbled across this.





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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27-04-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: Anything Goes?
(27-04-2013 08:55 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hmm. Serendipity. Minutes after I wrote the OP, I stumbled across this.

Serendipity indeed.

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27-04-2013, 09:36 AM
RE: Anything Goes?
I think the title you chose for this thread says a lot...

Quote: FROM THE ARTICLE: One of the officials said the FBI never found the type of derogatory information on Tsarnaev and his mother that would have elevated their profiles among counterterrorism investigators or would have formally placed them on a terror watch list.


Three quarter of a million people on this list... how many of them are actually tied to terrorist activity?

How many people are there who must, for the rest of their lives, register as sex offenders in every community in which they live? How many of those people are guilty of an actual crime? Personally, I know three sex offenders. One who is guilty of consensual sex with a girlfriend who was two years his junior and one who is guilty of seeking sex with a girl three years his junior. He was 20... the 17 year old girl, a middle aged cop posing as a girl on the internet. The third, a deplorable, disgusting man who raped his own grand daughter when she was eleven.

Of those three men, one was not required to register on the list of sex offenders and two are under thirty. One is a WWII veteran. A man who most people honored because he "served his country". A man who killed strangers because another man told him they were bad. A man who raped an eleven year old child... thereby ensuring that her adulthood would be fraught with fear, dysfunction and pain.

At some point, we must stop and look at what we are doing to our fellow human beings under the guise of protecting them. We must look at what our leaders are doing to strangers on the other side of the world and ask ourselves, if we were those people, how would we feel about our leaders?


I don't condone what these two men did in Boston, if they indeed did it. But I know that placing them on a list didn't make anyone safe. And I know that the list isn't the reason they did what they did.

My concern is not with these lists but with the motivations for making them.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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27-04-2013, 07:57 PM
RE: Anything Goes?
(27-04-2013 09:36 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  I think the title you chose for this thread says a lot...

Quote: FROM THE ARTICLE: One of the officials said the FBI never found the type of derogatory information on Tsarnaev and his mother that would have elevated their profiles among counterterrorism investigators or would have formally placed them on a terror watch list.


Three quarter of a million people on this list... how many of them are actually tied to terrorist activity?

How many people are there who must, for the rest of their lives, register as sex offenders in every community in which they live? How many of those people are guilty of an actual crime? Personally, I know three sex offenders. One who is guilty of consensual sex with a girlfriend who was two years his junior and one who is guilty of seeking sex with a girl three years his junior. He was 20... the 17 year old girl, a middle aged cop posing as a girl on the internet. The third, a deplorable, disgusting man who raped his own grand daughter when she was eleven.

Of those three men, one was not required to register on the list of sex offenders and two are under thirty. One is a WWII veteran. A man who most people honored because he "served his country". A man who killed strangers because another man told him they were bad. A man who raped an eleven year old child... thereby ensuring that her adulthood would be fraught with fear, dysfunction and pain.

At some point, we must stop and look at what we are doing to our fellow human beings under the guise of protecting them. We must look at what our leaders are doing to strangers on the other side of the world and ask ourselves, if we were those people, how would we feel about our leaders?


I don't condone what these two men did in Boston, if they indeed did it. But I know that placing them on a list didn't make anyone safe. And I know that the list isn't the reason they did what they did.

My concern is not with these lists but with the motivations for making them.

They indeed did it. Of that, there is no doubt.

N.B. The thread title was worthy of I and I.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-04-2013, 09:56 PM
RE: Anything Goes?
(27-04-2013 08:11 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Ben Franklin once said that anyone who would trade a little freedom for a little security deserves neither and will lose both.

I can't help but feel that this has been the great debate of the last 12 years. I can't help but feel that we've traded in a lot of freedom and adherence to law in order to feel safer.

What are your thoughts on this matter?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Mattt

Ghost,

You and I have had some differences in the past, and I regret this after having read your last post. I agree with you 100%.

It scares me how easily Americans are willing to sacrifice Freedom at the alter of "Securitty", and I never believed such a thing could happen. I figured we were too secure - or at least felt too secure - to let such a thing happen. I was wrong. We live in an era where we are safer than we have been for the last 50 years - and the facts can back that up - yet we live in paranoia. I am amazed.

http://thepublicintellectual.org/wp-cont...2010-2.jpg

Sorry for the facts. I know that facts are inconvenient truths that people hate, but I just felt compelled to include them.
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27-04-2013, 11:02 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2013 01:28 AM by kim.)
RE: Anything Goes?
(27-04-2013 08:11 AM)Ghost Wrote:  There's a school of thought that seems to suggest that terrorists get whatever comes to them (Guantanamo, rendition, torture, being shot to death) or that the people pursuing them are justified in using whatever tactic they choose. Is that reasonable? Is that prudent or is it going cowboy posse on them?

Some people maintain that terrorists retain their humanity despite what they've done. Others consider them rabid dogs to be put down. What do you think of them?

So, the Tsarnaev brothers, now survived by the younger brother, Dzhokhar. Has someone decided he is a terrorist? Appearing to describe him or at least equating him as such, may further help to confuse the issue for some - for many, actually.

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's innocence is assured by the same thing that protects all US citizens. I don't equate him with, or describe him to be, anything more than a suspect awaiting trial. Personally, I hope he is even able to receive a fair and impartial trial. It's going to be tough with people already calling him a terrorist.

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused has the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where the crime was committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
______

Wanna know what bothers me? The cop who was killed near the campus in Watertown, which sparked the "shoot out" that wounded the older Tsarnaev brother; they buried that cop. Seemed an awful quick burial to me. Did they determine who fired the shot or shots that killed the cop? Who is the suspect in that; the already dead suspect or the surviving suspect?

Each accusation is an entirely separate crime carrying it's own charge and sentence. If the death penalty comes into play in any part of this case, serious consideration might pull more weight with the murder of a state official performing the duties of his office, rather than the murder of a civilian citizen. I'd want to know who fired into that cop.

That's what bothers me but I live a thousand miles away and won't be sitting on any jury, impartial or otherwise. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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28-04-2013, 01:04 AM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2013 01:11 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Anything Goes?
(27-04-2013 11:02 PM)kim Wrote:  Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's innocence is assured by the same thing that protects all US citizens. I don't equate him with, or describe him to be, anything more than a suspect awaiting trial. Personally, I hope he is even able to receive a fair and impartial trial. It's going to be tough with people already calling him a terrorist.

According to the Fox News excerpts showed by the Daily Show, many U.S. folks don't think as you do, if not totally opposite.

So can you tell me what the percentage is like of the American people who do hold this "no more than a suspect awaiting trial" idea? If you don't like giving a percentage, can you describe it with an adjective about proportions?

It is what principals you believe in and showed between the lines that we Chinese admire about the American culture.

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