Apologetics is bad for Christianity
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25-02-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
Ya mighta missed a quote tag or two, r.a.i., tried to fix it for ya below:

(25-02-2014 12:21 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 11:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote:You aren't able to coherently respond to questions or requests for evidence in a logical manner, and therefore not the expert on apologetics you believe yourself to be.

In the Traditional Problem of Good and Evil thread, your response to "If God is all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful, why does evil exist?" You dumped a tenant of the Christian religion: God's Omnibenevolence, and claimed to the logical paradox "didn't apply to Christianity". You don't seem to understand the rules of logic or debate, let alone how to apply them in apologetics.


I didn't dump anything. I pointed out that from the Christian perspective God is all Good (hence the narrow view doctrine.) I aslo pointed out from the world's perspective He is not. then I tied both together with fact that God does not claim to be Omni benevolent. This fact takes Christianity outside the defined parameters of Epicurus' Paradox.

Do you specialize in starw men or are you speaking from a position of general ignorance?

Ignorance of what, the evidence you claim to have, but run away and hide every time you're asked to present it?

Go get a dictionary and re-read my post, carefully, using your finger to sound out the words if you need to.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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25-02-2014, 12:52 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(23-02-2014 12:19 PM)le_bard Wrote:  I won't lie that I make mistakes in my posts but, really, we all do. You act as if you're the only sane guy in a room of monkeys sometimes, you know that? I get it. Debating is tiring but the moment you get to the point where you can only respond to people with condescension, the debate is lost and the pissing contest ensues. I've had that shit happen countless times here, but I think the whole reason for it is explained in this very video. We're arguing about the wrong shit.
The condescending attitude does indeed put some people off, and since my debate with 'Kes' I am trying to change that, but you also have to nunderstand that any 'correct' opposition I repersent with verfiable fact is considered to be condesending to most. Because not only am I telling you all that your wrong I have proven it.
The problem is one of pride. You all generally do not want to be proven wrong. You all have a very small/narrow view of Christianity and God and when ever that view is proven to be wrong pride steps in and demands a reason for you to ignore/dismiss what has been proven to you. The easy way out is to lable me a condesending jerk. that way you can simply tell yourself this guys is looking for a fight and you can justify a name calling campain that usally results in you telling yourself that I and what I have said is not true. Look at rampant AI's post. He completely misrepersented what I had said in order to dismiss it.. Without a doubt I believe he thinks what he said is true. The only question is why. Is he just not up to speed, or has he trivialized what I said to the point of changing it/built a straw man so he could feel beeter about argueing what he is comfortable with?

I point those things out as a reality check. I want you all to see the contrast between what is/What you have said. Verses what you have changed it to. This in most people's mind is a work of condesending jerk.

In my line of work I diagnois alot of very complicated problems. In order to find viable solutions we must first be able to identify and accept areas of fault. This is what I am doing here. Identifying an area that is preventing a given person the reasoning ablity to come to a similar conclusion.

Quote:Because I'm an impatient man, and many people just end up cursing each other out over the pointless things. You've done it, I've done it, we all have. We can do as you say and let the opponent make a fool of himself but guess what? We'll just end up with someone feeling butthurt because we allowed the conversation to become a circus. And when you're in a circus, someone's gonna laugh at somebody. So let's stop putting up all the bullshit defense mechanisms that do nothing but make everyone despise conversation and come at it like we're defending our respect instead of testing our ideals.
Agreed.

Quote:The point is that if we're going to discuss why people believe or don't believe, be honest and discuss the source of your belief. If almost every christian will admit that the source of their belief is faith bred by the holy spirit, and NOT some silly argument, why the heck are we talking about everything but? Sure, the rest is also interesting to discuss but it misses a point and we end up defending science, the acquisition of knowledge, the validity of abiogenesis, and every other scientific claim instead of talking about the point.
Faith begets the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit provides evidence. Belief is based off the evidences provided by the Holy Spirit.

Quote:An atheist's reason for non belief is often met with assertions like "you didn't do it right" without taking time to honestly listen. And when we say "why is it that we should trust this personal testament of faith when there's a dime a dozen of those for every single religion out there?" we get "because the bible is true"
If the atheist believes my response is 'You did not do it right' then it is the atheist who did not listen.

I have identified disbelief as apart of the whole process of building a relationship with God. Only that one must push through his search and continue to know when he thinks he is alone.

How else can one discern or identify God unless first he is certain none of his efforts can or ever produce God.. It is from this silence we are finally able to hear the true voice of God.

many of you speculate that it's all in the 'believer's' head. apart of the process we must all endure is the silence you are currently in the middle of. When you hear and see something completely independant of anything you perviously thought or could comprehend, then you know that message/revelation is not from or apart of you.

This is what establishes belief. fore at that moment one knows that God is the author and the one who sustains our belief.

But, as I have said before any of you gets to this point you quit, otherwise you would not be an 'atheist.' A Misotheist maybe but you can not ever claim God does not exist and truly believe it.

Quote:We ask why should we posit faith in the bible's claims that jesus rose from the dead, and we get non sequiturs: "the bible is so historically accurate that we can't deny this" and "people wouldn't have died for their beliefs if they were false"

It's tiring, really. All of this shit is.
You can believe what the bible said about Christ's resurection because What God says to you about A/S/K for the Holy Spirit and He will Give you what you ask for is true.

We are told that it is impossiable for us to believe from a point of reason alone. that God Himself provides the proof needed for each indivisual person. If you want to believe you must first seek God. He will establish and help you maintian your belief for you.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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25-02-2014, 01:04 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(25-02-2014 10:11 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Because a religion that promotes itself solely by being beneficial to potential believers can also be beneficial to society, for example by giving moral support and strength to those that cannot find it any other way.
Not true. we are told to involve ourselves in with soceity, not to ignore it or wall ourselves off from it. we are to invite people in and show them the way God has shown us. No one will be able to find Him by simply involving themselves with religion. The only thing accomplished there is more involvement with a given religion.
Quote:A religion that uses fear to gain and retain members is not beneficial to its members or to society. Its members will be defensive and bigoted. The religion becomes a parasite on society.
True.
Biblical Christianity is not a religion like this.
Again my conversion was not about the experience of Hell. As i pointed out in my experience I was near being consumed by Hell fire, and furthermore I have since (with in the last 2 or 3 years) come to the understanding that the bible supports my experience that Hell fire consumes/destroys the soul.

What brought me to God was the micro second that I got to experience His glory and Love.


Quote:A beneficial religion that does not try to contradict science can co-exist with science, technology and the modern world. For example, it is not uncommon to hear of Buddhist scientists.
There are many Christians who are in the fields of science. Your speaking of theoritical science or fringe science. (not real science.)

The problem here is of a paradoxial nature. If God is small enough to be put into a box and expermented on then how is He then big enough to be God?
God provides 'proof' on His terms. However 'science' moves the goal post to exclude what God offers.

Quote:I have a lot of respect for Buddhists and Quakers for example and from what I have seen these religions fulfil a positive role in society. If all the theists in the world took the advice in that video then the world would be a much better place.
You repsect them because you can erect a box around them and predict what to expect from them. you can then completely dismiss them at any point sighting their beliefs/way of life when ever they conflict with your own. Not so with Christianity.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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25-02-2014, 01:08 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(25-02-2014 11:06 AM)donotwant Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 11:03 AM)Drich Wrote:  Actualy you don't per all the crap you post about arguement you won over Christians... Either that or your just a good ole fashion hypocrite.

Sorry dude you're just wrooooong Cool

Toadly agreed with apart of what I said so I understand the basis of his arguement quite well, then you underscored what toadly said in that You should let theist say what they want and let them make a fool of themselves. Yet at the same time you have created several back patting threads where you claim to have defeated Christians in debate. Which is the oppsite of what Toadly and I have agreed upon.. Which is what you pretended to agree with...

So, tell me some more on how I am wrong.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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25-02-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(25-02-2014 11:11 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 11:05 AM)Drich Wrote:  Maybe that is because 'he' is not interested in converting anyone. but to knock the fence sitters off in one direction or another.
In that case, stick around. The fence sitters are all falling on the atheist side of the fence. Thanks. Thumbsup

Atheism is nessary time some of us has to spend in the desert in order to find Christ. I will definatly stick around to push people into this desert, and walk them through it and help them come out on the otherside. Or like someothers help them to stay in it. again If God gave you the right to choose what you want to do with how you spend eternity. then who am I to tell you, that you have chosen incorrectly?

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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25-02-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(25-02-2014 01:11 PM)Drich Wrote:  Atheism is nessary time some of us has to spend in the desert in order to find Christ. I will definatly stick around to push people into this desert, and walk them through it and help them come out on the otherside. Or like someothers help them to stay in it. again If God gave you the right to choose what you want to do with how you spend eternity. then who am I to tell you, that you have chosen incorrectly?

Christianity was a necessary* time I had to spend before I found atheism.


*necessary, in that I was told to believe this from around the time I was told to believe in Santa.
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25-02-2014, 02:27 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
Drich. Do not dismiss arguments by telling people that they are doing something completely different to what they know they are doing or that their history happened differently. How can you hope to convince anybody if you make this stuff up?

You tell me why I have respect for Buddhists and Quakers yet I never said why I do. You can make an assumption why I am thinking about things in a certain way but do not tell me what I am thinking or what I remember.

You tell me that the Buddhists scientists I have heard about were in theoretical or fringe science (theoretical science isn't real science?) yet I never mentioned which science or how I heard about them.

It's like me telling you that you have attachment issues with your aunt and that your beliefs can be dismissed since you only converted because you are insecure about your acne. Only you know what you felt at the time and currently believe. How does it help anyone to make stuff up like this?

If you have to resort to such tactics then you really are struggling.
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25-02-2014, 02:37 PM
Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(25-02-2014 01:11 PM)Drich Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 11:11 AM)Impulse Wrote:  In that case, stick around. The fence sitters are all falling on the atheist side of the fence. Thanks. Thumbsup

Atheism is nessary time some of us has to spend in the desert in order to find Christ. I will definatly stick around to push people into this desert, and walk them through it and help them come out on the otherside. Or like someothers help them to stay in it. again If God gave you the right to choose what you want to do with how you spend eternity. then who am I to tell you, that you have chosen incorrectly?

And yet here you are, posting in threads to tell people they have chosen incorrectly, denying rational thinking, scientific inquiry, and demanding your unfounded assertions be taken as facts in equal standing to well-researched, established scientific knowledge, without offering any proof for your wild claims.

I'm beginning to think self-congratulation (a very unchristian trait) is a strategy to avoid having to address responses to your posts.

You throw out a bunch of Gish Gallop claims, and when asked to back them up, you start congratulating yourself for your "unbeatable rhetoric" and switch to the next preachy topic.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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25-02-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(25-02-2014 01:11 PM)Drich Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 11:11 AM)Impulse Wrote:  In that case, stick around. The fence sitters are all falling on the atheist side of the fence. Thanks. Thumbsup

Atheism is nessary time some of us has to spend in the desert in order to find Christ. I will definatly stick around to push people into this desert, and walk them through it and help them come out on the otherside. Or like someothers help them to stay in it. again If God gave you the right to choose what you want to do with how you spend eternity. then who am I to tell you, that you have chosen incorrectly?
So you don't think you have the right to tell me I chose incorrectly, but you do think you have the right to push the fence sitters to one side or the other simply because they haven't yet made a choice? The way I see it, either one is interfering with a choice that you perceive as God-given. So how are they different again? Consider

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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25-02-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(22-02-2014 10:50 PM)le_bard Wrote:  



This guy spoke to a lot of points I've thought about before. If were a christian with a basis for belief coming from the supposed holy spirit and not wlc's kalam argument, why would i try to use such arguments to justify belief clearly spurned by something else? It's as TMM points out: disengenuous

If i were a christian I would attack WLC and most other apologists and just beg people to pray because that's how the spirit convinces people.

Though after a while I'd become an atheist anyway after thinking to myself how so many people aren't changed after such a prayer, or converts to another different religion as a result of the spirit of another god.

This video lays this shit right out man! Well articulated statement!! Powerful!!
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