Apologetics is bad for Christianity
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25-02-2014, 11:05 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
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Quote:An atheist's reason for non belief is often met with assertions like "you didn't do it right" without taking time to honestly listen. And when we say "why is it that we should trust this personal testament of faith when there's a dime a dozen of those for every single religion out there?" we get "because the bible is true"
If the atheist believes my response is 'You did not do it right' then it is the atheist who did not listen.

I have identified disbelief as apart of the whole process of building a relationship with God. Only that one must push through his search and continue to know when he thinks he is alone.

How else can one discern or identify God unless first he is certain none of his efforts can or ever produce God.. It is from this silence we are finally able to hear the true voice of God.

I could go back to posts where you said, in essence, "you didn't do it right" because I stopped at the seek step of ask, seek, knock. Even though that stop wasn't a voluntary one. At which point of ask, seek, knock, do I need to have any belief that god exists? Certainly before the knocking point, because I couldn't possibly be able to ask for a god I know not to be existent. Ask is a little self explanatory, you pray for the revelation. You pray for something.

When I get silence as a response, I wasn't the one who didn't put forth anything in the relationship building process between myself and god, he was. You know, I did actually pray when we went through that conversation a little while ago. But nothing changed between that and now, or the last time I did it weeks ago, or weeks ago before that, and before that.. you get the point. At what point in this constant request for an answer is it MY fault that I didn't get a response? I mean seriously the nights where I was a shaky believer I had the same lack of a response. And I remember those church services describing god as the still, small voice. That was almost a year and a half ago, practically two by now.

I came to a point where I had NOTHING else giving me ideas, and even in the silence there was no voice. Not figuratively, literally, nothing. So I pray as well to gain the ability to hear god. But, nothing else. The parables always talk about perseverance, about the lady who went and harassed the judge day in and day out to hear her out, eventually annoying the judge and leaving him no choice. For me, I still don't know if there's a freaking judge in the courtroom! And what's worse, that's the most terrible parable I've ever heard of anyway. Who would force a client to piss them off BEFORE taking them in? If there's a god and that's his modus operandi then maybe I am better off without him, because that's inexcusably inconsiderate.

But, I was willing to contextualize all that if I could just know that a god exists, but nope. I've gotten fed up, then tried again, then gotten fed up. When's that all going to stop, hm? Before I get the privilege to know that there is a god? When I'm about to die? midway through my life? I know impatience isn't a virtue but sincerity can only run so far before someone has to stop. I'm far too close to that point. Paul didn't even NEED to pray, he got to go blind at a vision of god and he wasn't even willing. So this unfair treatment and sparing handouts of truth is simple nonsense. But that all goes away when you simply conclude that there couldn't be a god. The longer I wait the more that makes sense, because there's a point where it's merely superstition.

My godmother left the church, to become a muslim. She sincerely believed that allah called for her. Ain't that some shit.
Quote:You can believe what the bible said about Christ's resurection because What God says to you about A/S/K for the Holy Spirit and He will Give you what you ask for is true.

We are told that it is impossiable for us to believe from a point of reason alone. that God Himself provides the proof needed for each indivisual person. If you want to believe you must first seek God. He will establish and help you maintian your belief for you.

So yeah, I did stop at seeking. But i didn't stop voluntarily. I can't go knocking until I know that there's at least a door to knock on, but I'm stuck in some limbo apparently until god so chooses to lemme know he's real. see, asking requires an answer before I seek god, because if not then I'm seeking nothing. knocking is impossible until the seeking part is done, but I'm still waiting for an answer.

And, here's a question, what are we supposed to tell the muslim or hindu or any other religious person that their belief is wrong? The did A/S/K and got different answers. Clearly someone is deluding themselves. Well, a bunch of people are. and why is that? Probably because when they did A/S/K they only thought they heard something from a god. This is a totally wickedly efficient system.

Also:

Quote:many of you speculate that it's all in the 'believer's' head. apart of the process we must all endure is the silence you are currently in the middle of. When you hear and see something completely independant of anything you perviously thought or could comprehend, then you know that message/revelation is not from or apart of you.

before you say I must've skipped this bit to ask the last question.

The silence shouldn't last this long, any omnipotent and omniscient being could know how to give me knowledge of them in a split second. And seeing something independent of anything I previously thought or could comprehend, huh? Science does that all the time, it's called learning something new. Is THAT revelation from god? But that doesn't take prayer, that takes research. Experimentation. And that's a process contingent on the testability of that thing, which god isn't so.... what. We can't see or hear something independent of what we previously thought or could comprehend if that thing isn't testable.

If there is an alternative way to learn something new about the world that's verifiably true, through some direct revelation, it'll be too caught up in our fallible brains to be sure we didn't just make it up. Epiphanies happen all the time and we commonly deduce this new unheard of knowledge as a machination of the mind, pulling things that we must have forgotten about in he past back to the present

Unless you meant hearing or seeing visions. Well that's also pretty indistinguishable from any other irrational dream, so how am I supposed to know that it's a dream and not a delusion. I could POINT you to people who became religious after such a dream, and they aren't christians. Hm. So they must be dreaming some irrational stuff if they're wrong, and if not and they just misinterpreted it, how are we going to blame the fallable human for a system based off of such shaky foundations like the dreams?

Quote:Faith begets the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit provides evidence. Belief is based off the evidences provided by the Holy Spirit.

You're going to have to convince me that you didn't also just say that we need faith BEFORE evidence. How can anyone delude themselves into confidence and assurance before having the evidence that would GIVE them faith?

I appreciate your elaborations but there are a bunch of problems with the logic you're bringing up here. Evidence leads to belief, yes, but evidence also leads to RATIONAL faith. The kind of faith you have because something has established itself time and time again. Any faith not based on evidence is subject to delusions. (and that goes for your biblical definition of assurance and confidence, too) This has been verified by science time and time again, like when I pointed out the powers of delusion instating the placebo effect in patients. With a brain so good at manipulating ourselves against our wishes, faith is a dangerous thing without evidence. That was practically inconsistent with the idea of A/S/K in the first place!

It's only a debate if both parties are willing to let each other's opinions change their own.
If you aren't willing to change in light of learning more about what you fight for, what the hell are you doing expecting the other party to want to change?
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25-02-2014, 11:30 PM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(23-02-2014 12:16 AM)Drich Wrote:  I think apologetics is bad for atheism, hence the need for the propaganda video that is propping up your position a can be used as a peer pressure piece.

If it was truly bad for those you oppose, why not let you opponent run with it, make a fool of himself and destroy what he is trying to protect? Rather we are lead to believe the atheist instinct is to let theist know that what they are doing will be their undoing? For what reason? To be honorable or fair?!? Take a look at some of your own posts let alone the content of others on this forum, or if that is not enough of a man like Richard Dawkins...

YOU are actually the best apologist for atheism I've seen.
Your idiocy knows no bounds. You aren't exactly one to be talking about people "making fools" of themselves. You are quite THE expert in that area, Drivel.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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26-02-2014, 12:15 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(25-02-2014 11:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-02-2014 12:16 AM)Drich Wrote:  I think apologetics is bad for atheism, hence the need for the propaganda video that is propping up your position a can be used as a peer pressure piece.

If it was truly bad for those you oppose, why not let you opponent run with it, make a fool of himself and destroy what he is trying to protect? Rather we are lead to believe the atheist instinct is to let theist know that what they are doing will be their undoing? For what reason? To be honorable or fair?!? Take a look at some of your own posts let alone the content of others on this forum, or if that is not enough of a man like Richard Dawkins...

YOU are actually the best apologist for atheism I've seen.
Your idiocy knows no bounds. You aren't exactly one to be talking about people "making fools" of themselves. You are quite THE expert in that area, Drivel.

Drich wrote: A English professor I debated from oxford thought this way
i was dying when i read that in your sig xD

It's only a debate if both parties are willing to let each other's opinions change their own.
If you aren't willing to change in light of learning more about what you fight for, what the hell are you doing expecting the other party to want to change?
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26-02-2014, 12:40 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(25-02-2014 02:38 PM)max_payne Wrote:  
(22-02-2014 10:50 PM)le_bard Wrote:  



This guy spoke to a lot of points I've thought about before. If were a christian with a basis for belief coming from the supposed holy spirit and not wlc's kalam argument, why would i try to use such arguments to justify belief clearly spurned by something else? It's as TMM points out: disengenuous

If i were a christian I would attack WLC and most other apologists and just beg people to pray because that's how the spirit convinces people.

Though after a while I'd become an atheist anyway after thinking to myself how so many people aren't changed after such a prayer, or converts to another different religion as a result of the spirit of another god.

This video lays this shit right out man! Well articulated statement!! Powerful!!

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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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26-02-2014, 01:08 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
If (evangelical) apologetics is bad for Christianity why do so many anti-theists hate apologists?
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26-02-2014, 01:10 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
Waaaaa!
My negative reps are -13
Weeping
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26-02-2014, 01:12 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 01:08 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  If (evangelical) apologetics is bad for Christianity why do so many anti-theists hate apologists?

I am an atheist and I don't hate apologists. I laugh at em.
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26-02-2014, 01:17 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 01:12 AM)donotwant Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 01:08 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  If (evangelical) apologetics is bad for Christianity why do so many anti-theists hate apologists?

I am an atheist and I don't hate apologists. I laugh at em.

They benefit humanity by exposing how stupid, blind faith makes you behave.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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26-02-2014, 01:23 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 01:17 AM)sporehux Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 01:12 AM)donotwant Wrote:  I am an atheist and I don't hate apologists. I laugh at em.

They benefit humanity by exposing how stupid, blind faith makes you behave.

Well my point is that truth will prevail. If there is a god I want to know it. And if apologists think they have best arguments for his existence let em bring it on.
I am not afraid of finding out that god exists. But even if he does it doesn't mean I will worship him.
So far all theist arguments failed. So I am an atheist.
And I will remain one will they bring a better argument.
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26-02-2014, 01:31 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 01:08 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  If (evangelical) apologetics is bad for Christianity why do so many anti-theists hate apologists?

Because of a natural aversion to the stench of bullshit.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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