Apologetics is bad for Christianity
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
26-02-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 09:20 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 08:22 AM)alpha male Wrote:  It's inconsistent to argue that omnipotence means "can do anything" when it suits your purposes (typically in a PoE discussion), but to also claim that omniscience and free will are logcially incompatible.

How come?
Facepalm

Because if omnipotence means able to do anything,, including the logically impossible, then the argument that omniscience precludes free will fails with an omnipotent god.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-02-2014, 09:24 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 09:07 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Why is it impossible for god to stop cancer?
This is turning into a logical fallacy thread. This is an example of a red herring.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-02-2014, 09:25 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 01:23 AM)donotwant Wrote:  And if apologists think they have best arguments for his existence let em bring it on.

Apologetics does not present arguments for a god. It's the art of keeping possibilities open through speculation. It's purpose is to provide an 'out' to believers when they run up against a conundrum.

ex.
"Why does god allow evil?"
"Maybe he wants us to see for ourselves the outcome of sin. See? That proves how much he loves us."

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes toadaly's post
26-02-2014, 09:28 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 09:23 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 09:20 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  How come?
Facepalm

Because if omnipotence means able to do anything,, including the logically impossible, then the argument that omniscience precludes free will fails with an omnipotent god.

Well no god can ever draw a square circle I can agree with that. Omnipotence is being able to do everything that is possible to do.
The thing is most people associate a free will in being able to choose what to do.
That free will is not compatible with omniscient god because then people would only be able to choose what god knows they are gonna choose.
Therefore they can't be held accountable for choosing the only thing they are able to choose.

So yes omniscient being cannot give free will to the people.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-02-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 08:22 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 07:48 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Show us a skeptic argument which is inconsistent. Come on don't be a pussy.
I already did. It's inconsistent to argue that omnipotence means "can do anything" when it suits your purposes (typically in a PoE discussion), but to also claim that omniscience and free will are logcially incompatible.

Those are two separate arguments. One need not be dependent on the other. I do wonder what you think 'omnipotent' means, if 'can do anything' is not a good description. Some people will say it means "can do anything possible", or further restrict it to "can do anything possible that he wants to do". But even these modified concepts have built-in inconsistencies. At some point, you have to drop the 'omni'.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes toadaly's post
26-02-2014, 09:35 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 09:05 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 08:53 AM)donotwant Wrote:  The incompatibility of free will and omniscience lies in inability to do otherwise.
If somebody is gonna be a murderer god knows it before the murderer is born. So how can you judge someone for something they were destined to do before they were born?
Yes, I understand the argument - it's as old as the hills. The point is that, once you adopt this position, you've established that omnipotence does not mean "able to do anything," but rather is limited to that which is logically possible. Yet, in other contexts, atheists will argue that omnipotence does mean able to do anything without limitation (saw that on this forum yesterday), and claim that theists are wrong to note the logically impossible limitation.

An omnipotent creator also made the rules by which our conceptions are limited. Any limitation is self-imposed.

Every subsequent possible line of further inquiry - every permutation of "why" and "how" - inevitably terminates in "I don't know / God is unknowable". It is not possible to know according to the parameters theists themselves define. The only reason to hold such circular and self-contradictory premises in the first place is cultural indoctrination backed by subjective personal experience.

Any theist with a shred of honesty will admit this. They don't know. Fair enough; no one does. But you'll have to forgive us for recognizing the worship of ignorance by any other name for the waste of time it is. And yet so far as that goes it is no great worry if others persist in it; the threat lies where worship of ignorance turns to a desire to perpetuate ignorance.

So there's that.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
26-02-2014, 09:37 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 09:28 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Well no god can ever draw a square circle I can agree with that. Omnipotence is being able to do everything that is possible to do.
That's good. Unfortunately, a lot of other atheists disagree, at least when it's convenient to do so. And I doubt you'll call them out on it, or support a theist who does so.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-02-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 09:37 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 09:28 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Well no god can ever draw a square circle I can agree with that. Omnipotence is being able to do everything that is possible to do.
That's good. Unfortunately, a lot of other atheists disagree, at least when it's convenient to do so. And I doubt you'll call them out on it, or support a theist who does so.

So apparently there was an atheist who said something I disagree with. There are also theists who probably said something you disagree with.
Now there are things which you and I disagree with. Those are the ones we should address.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like donotwant's post
26-02-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 09:40 AM)donotwant Wrote:  So apparently there was an atheist who said something I disagree with.

Oh, God, say it ain't so!

CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
26-02-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: Apologetics is bad for Christianity
(26-02-2014 09:43 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 09:40 AM)donotwant Wrote:  So apparently there was an atheist who said something I disagree with.

Oh, God, say it ain't so!

CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS

Well Matt Dillahunty been saying for years that information stands and falls on it's own basis not on the basis of the messenger and I agree. Atheism is just atheism and if someone is both atheist and a racist doesn't mean that atheism is racist.
That's why I never gave shites that there are scientists who were religious.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: