Apologist
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06-02-2013, 09:43 AM
AW: RE: Apologist
(06-02-2013 07:08 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Vosur.

Thanks again.

So I'm an Agnostic apologist and you're an Atheist apologist?
According to my definition, yes.

Although that would be "agnostic atheist" for me.

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06-02-2013, 09:47 AM
RE: Apologist
Hey, Dom.

I just think that all of this is fascinating. Apologist is a term that's used pretty ubiquitously around here and this thread has demonstrated that people actually mean quite different things by it. I'm finding it really interesting unpacking some of that. I certainly have already learned a great deal. It's been a productive dialogue.

I harp a little on the idea of value judgement because my own understanding of the term apologist is biased by the fact that people have accused me of being an apologist and, I have felt, used it pejoratively and that most of the time, the term is used pejoratively and dismissively, "I hate it when stupid aplogists...." or "You're just a fucking apologist!" It's been interesting hearing more clinical definitions of the term along with definitions that seem to jive with my interpretation. As I said, I'm learning a lot.

Hey, MD.

So, by that definition, is it impossible for a scientist to be an apologist because the assumption is that they investigate first and are therefore not righteous?

Hey, Vosur.

Cool Thanks.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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06-02-2013, 11:31 AM
RE: Apologist
Ahem. Drinking Beverage

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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06-02-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: Apologist
From: The Universal Tokutter dictionary of Right

apologist: Christian bullshit artist



There,....nuff said
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06-02-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: Apologist
Hey, Tokutter.

So you disagree with the notion that apologist applies to everyone that defends their position?

By bullshit artist, I make the guess that you don't think highly of apologists. Is that so?

Hey, Kim.

Ahem?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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06-02-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Apologist
(06-02-2013 01:52 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Kim.
Ahem?

Sorry, posted twice on the previous page.

An apologist is a devil's advocate... although, maybe not quite meaning to be so provocative, it's someone who offers an argument in defense of something controversial.

The subject could be anything.

Many people were apologists for fascism in the thirties... some still are.

Of course, "controversy" may also be a case of timing.
I'm sure slavery was at one time not controversial... it was quite accepted. If there was a contrary opinion at that time, then defense of that opinion would be to argue for some evil notion, I'm sure. You would be a devil advocating the abolishment of slavery.

Interesting, huh?
It seems one must decide what is good for themselves and duck... stones flung at the devil can be as deliberately aimed as the ones the devil throws himself. Wink

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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06-02-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: Apologist
@ Ghost

Apply it to what ever you want . Ninety-nine percent of the time i see the word used it has the word christian in front of it. I guess William Lane Craig would be considered one of the top apologists and he is one big gish galloping bullshit artist.
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06-02-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Apologist
(05-02-2013 02:04 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

I fear that you're right. I really wanted to be with you the other night, baby, really I did, but then Harris stepped in and did to you what he does to everyone to make them think they're being loved and looked after and told the honest to God truth. He licked your ass.





Hey, Amy.

I think I'd like it if you could elaborate on what you mean by "weasel words".

Quote:I wouldn't say it's a matter of right and wrong, since they usually deal in the unprovable and unsupportable.

That seems like a contradiction to me.

Quote:That's why it's a waste of time, because their religion relies on faith
and not evidence (including the faith that the bible is the word of
god).

So are only Christians apologists?

Quote:I wouldn't say it's a pejorative, I'd just say if they are so keen on
faith, why even bother trying to explain and support their position?

Should they not respond to people's criticisms?

Hey, Dom.

Thank you very much for your crappy elaboration... wait...

So does that mean that an apologist is someone that defends a position that you disagree with?

I suppose that my extension question would be, would it be possible for an apologist to change your mind?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
"We philosophers can always change our mind" Moshe Kroy.
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06-02-2013, 03:08 PM
RE: Apologist
(06-02-2013 09:47 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I just think that all of this is fascinating. Apologist is a term that's used pretty ubiquitously around here and this thread has demonstrated that people actually mean quite different things by it. I'm finding it really interesting unpacking some of that. I certainly have already learned a great deal. It's been a productive dialogue.
This is why we post wikilinks and definitions so that we can argue on the same page. So that the language that we are using is consistent in meaning with one another. Otherwise we have ideas that we arguing about that are actually two different things.

While you may hate definitions, they are important.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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06-02-2013, 11:17 PM
RE: Apologist
Hey, Tokutter.

Don't mistake me. I'm just curious about how you view the term. It was just looking for clarification. Thank you for clarifying things.

Hey, Kim.

Interesting.

I've always viewed a devils advocate as a different thing, but I think I see where you're coming from.

I agree. I think controversy is temporally contextual.

So during slavery, would the abolitionist be the apologist?

Hey, fst.

What this thread has demonstrated quite handily is that people don't operate within rigid definitions. So to be angry at people for operating outside of the lines is silly. To post a wikilink or a dictionary definition and assume that everyone will just drop what they're doing and adopt those definitions because they "should" is a little on the delusional side. Definitions help, they don't rule us.

And I don't hate definitions. You've invented that. I just don't allow myself to be ruled by them and I understand that life occurs outside of them.

Quote:We often think of definition as a cornerstone of reason – as our
protection against superstition, prejudice and ignorance. A definition is
therefore intended to clarify things, to free us for action. But what we have
seen in our society is that a definition can just as easily become a means of
control, a profoundly reactionary force.
‘Well what is your
definition of ethics? Ah, well, if that’s your definition…’
And so, rather scholastic conventions
can lock us into assumptions of inevitability and give comfort to received
wisdom. A definition then becomes a crutch for certainty and ideology.

(Saul, On
Equilibrium, p 11-12)

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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