Apologists for IS
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04-10-2014, 05:34 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 05:19 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 03:35 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  False analogy. Spoons are not necessary for the intake of food which leads to obesity, we utilize them due to social custom. More importantly, they are not the motivating factor for obesity. The religious beliefs of ISIS members, on the other hand are the direct motivators of their justification for killing people; they wouldn't likely be motivated to kill people in the absence of their religious beliefs.

ISIS is waging a war to establish a state. That is their motivation. Religion is used as a tool to manipulate foot soldiers to fight for that end.

So, the "Islamic" state does not compute with you being a religious army fighting for religious reasons because Islam?


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04-10-2014, 05:38 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
The thing that gets me is the way he puts all of IS's actions down to poverty... So I asked him to explain how you go from "I'm poor and hungry..." to massacring villages, murdering children and dismembering people...

This is his response...

"Control by fear. Kill, and the people will sit down and do as they're told. And the brain-washing and indoctrination. And hence the void created by politics/war/poverty can be filled by people with guns and a desire for rule and power.

As I say, it depends how you wish to define religion. Christianity, as I see it, is a loving religion. Not one to fear. It's not for marauding through countries declaring war on others - it's for finding reconciliation and harmony. It wasn't true Christianity which was responsible for the Crusades etc.

Muslim leaders worldwide have denounced IS. Religion has certainly been (and is) used in negative ways, when there's an agenda to be had, but I see IS as an extreme, even fraudulent, (agenda ridden) version of Islam, much as the Crusades pretended to be true-Christian, one which I believe does not represent the huge majority of Muslims.

I do agree though - a form of "religion" is partially responsible for these such atrocities. However, I see it much more that the religion of Islam is little but a vehicle which has been abused for purpose, rather than it being a cause."


As far as I can tell, its just plain denial... Everything IS has done is consistent with the full enforcement of Shariah law. Beheading infidels, gouging out the eyes for lust, and dismemberment for theft.

IS/ISIS/ISIL have stated unambiguously that they wish to establish an Islamic Caliphate... Based on their actions, I can to believe it...

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04-10-2014, 05:50 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 05:38 PM)Sam Wrote:  The thing that gets me is the way he puts all of IS's actions down to poverty... So I asked him to explain how you go from "I'm poor and hungry..." to massacring villages, murdering children and dismembering people...

This is his response...

"Control by fear. Kill, and the people will sit down and do as they're told. And the brain-washing and indoctrination. And hence the void created by politics/war/poverty can be filled by people with guns and a desire for rule and power.

As I say, it depends how you wish to define religion. Christianity, as I see it, is a loving religion. Not one to fear. It's not for marauding through countries declaring war on others - it's for finding reconciliation and harmony. It wasn't true Christianity which was responsible for the Crusades etc.

Muslim leaders worldwide have denounced IS. Religion has certainly been (and is) used in negative ways, when there's an agenda to be had, but I see IS as an extreme, even fraudulent, (agenda ridden) version of Islam, much as the Crusades pretended to be true-Christian, one which I believe does not represent the huge majority of Muslims.

I do agree though - a form of "religion" is partially responsible for these such atrocities. However, I see it much more that the religion of Islam is little but a vehicle which has been abused for purpose, rather than it being a cause."


As far as I can tell, its just plain denial... Everything IS has done is consistent with the full enforcement of Shariah law. Beheading infidels, gouging out the eyes for lust, and dismemberment for theft.

IS/ISIS/ISIL have stated unambiguously that they wish to establish an Islamic Caliphate... Based on their actions, I can to believe it...

What do you define as true Christians and True Islams? Isn't that a no true scottsman fallacy?


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04-10-2014, 05:52 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 05:19 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 03:35 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  False analogy. Spoons are not necessary for the intake of food which leads to obesity, we utilize them due to social custom. More importantly, they are not the motivating factor for obesity. The religious beliefs of ISIS members, on the other hand are the direct motivators of their justification for killing people; they wouldn't likely be motivated to kill people in the absence of their religious beliefs.

ISIS is waging a war to establish a state. That is their motivation. Religion is used as a tool to manipulate foot soldiers to fight for that end.

And what do you think motivates them for the creation of this state?

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04-10-2014, 05:59 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 05:50 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 05:38 PM)Sam Wrote:  The thing that gets me is the way he puts all of IS's actions down to poverty... So I asked him to explain how you go from "I'm poor and hungry..." to massacring villages, murdering children and dismembering people...

This is his response...

"Control by fear. Kill, and the people will sit down and do as they're told. And the brain-washing and indoctrination. And hence the void created by politics/war/poverty can be filled by people with guns and a desire for rule and power.

As I say, it depends how you wish to define religion. Christianity, as I see it, is a loving religion. Not one to fear. It's not for marauding through countries declaring war on others - it's for finding reconciliation and harmony. It wasn't true Christianity which was responsible for the Crusades etc.

Muslim leaders worldwide have denounced IS. Religion has certainly been (and is) used in negative ways, when there's an agenda to be had, but I see IS as an extreme, even fraudulent, (agenda ridden) version of Islam, much as the Crusades pretended to be true-Christian, one which I believe does not represent the huge majority of Muslims.

I do agree though - a form of "religion" is partially responsible for these such atrocities. However, I see it much more that the religion of Islam is little but a vehicle which has been abused for purpose, rather than it being a cause."


As far as I can tell, its just plain denial... Everything IS has done is consistent with the full enforcement of Shariah law. Beheading infidels, gouging out the eyes for lust, and dismemberment for theft.

IS/ISIS/ISIL have stated unambiguously that they wish to establish an Islamic Caliphate... Based on their actions, I can to believe it...

What do you define as true Christians and True Islams? Isn't that a no true scottsman fallacy?

That's what I said to him... I don't think he's heard of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy before. Whether he has or not, he uses it a lot.

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04-10-2014, 06:07 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
Right... I basically told him that his argument that IS do what they do because of poverty is complete and utter bullshit. To which he's responded by giving three quotes from British moderate Muslims...

Sure, I don't doubt that the majority of people, regardless of what they believe in consider these acts to be deeply immoral... But to me it seems as if he's avoiding the central issue. Which is, why are these people doing what they're doing. Simply because moderate Muslims condemn IS's actions, does not in any way prove that Islam is not the motive for IS. Everything they do or say suggests their motive is the creation of a Caliphate, with strict enforcement of Shariah Law...

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04-10-2014, 06:07 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 05:59 PM)Sam Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 05:50 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  What do you define as true Christians and True Islams? Isn't that a no true scottsman fallacy?

That's what I said to him... I don't think he's heard of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy before. Whether he has or not, he uses it a lot.

oh, I see. OK. maybe I will go back and reread what ya said.


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04-10-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 05:38 PM)Sam Wrote:  The thing that gets me is the way he puts all of IS's actions down to poverty... So I asked him to explain how you go from "I'm poor and hungry..." to massacring villages, murdering children and dismembering people...

This is his response...

As far as I can tell, its just plain denial... Everything IS has done is consistent with the full enforcement of Shariah law. Beheading infidels, gouging out the eyes for lust, and dismemberment for theft.

IS/ISIS/ISIL have stated unambiguously that they wish to establish an Islamic Caliphate... Based on their actions, I can to believe it...

Sam, you seem to be upset that he doesn't see religion as the cause of these atrocities. Lets assume for a moment that is religion. Does that make the commission of these atrocities any more evil or horrible than say if they were committed because the Broncos lost the superbowl? It doesn't.

Its not that big of a deal if his opinion on why ISIS is doing what is doing is different then yours. You'd have cause to be upset it he was cheering ISIS on or simply didn't care but nothing you've written thus far indicates this is the case.
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04-10-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 06:09 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 05:38 PM)Sam Wrote:  The thing that gets me is the way he puts all of IS's actions down to poverty... So I asked him to explain how you go from "I'm poor and hungry..." to massacring villages, murdering children and dismembering people...

This is his response...

As far as I can tell, its just plain denial... Everything IS has done is consistent with the full enforcement of Shariah law. Beheading infidels, gouging out the eyes for lust, and dismemberment for theft.

IS/ISIS/ISIL have stated unambiguously that they wish to establish an Islamic Caliphate... Based on their actions, I can to believe it...

Sam, you seem to be upset that he doesn't see religion as the cause of these atrocities. Lets assume for a moment that is religion. Does that make the commission of these atrocities any more evil or horrible than say if they were committed because the Broncos lost the superbowl? It doesn't.

Its not that big of a deal if his opinion on why ISIS is doing what is doing is different then yours. You'd have cause to be upset it he was cheering ISIS on or simply didn't care but nothing you've written thus far indicates this is the case.

I'm not at all upset about anything.

Its his opinion that religion has absolutely nothing to do with the atrocities being committed by IS... I asked him to suggest what the actual motive might be, and he replies that its poverty and politics.

If that's the case, how exactly does a person go from "I'm poor, hungry and wish for something better..." to massacring whole villages (including children), beheading aid workers, committing mass rape etc... So far he's not given a very conclusive answer. His response is that they simply want "power". While I'm sure power and control is a factor, he flat refuses to acknowledge that religious belief has a tendency to make people act in very strange ways... Sometimes, in extremely violent ways.

Essentially, he'll accept any cause for this crisis, except religion... He won't even consider it as a possibility. Despite repeated cases throughout history, of humans committing heinous acts in the name of one religion or another. To suggest that IS's motive for their crimes might be their religion, to him, is not politically correct...

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04-10-2014, 06:39 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 06:21 PM)Sam Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 06:09 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Sam, you seem to be upset that he doesn't see religion as the cause of these atrocities. Lets assume for a moment that is religion. Does that make the commission of these atrocities any more evil or horrible than say if they were committed because the Broncos lost the superbowl? It doesn't.

Its not that big of a deal if his opinion on why ISIS is doing what is doing is different then yours. You'd have cause to be upset it he was cheering ISIS on or simply didn't care but nothing you've written thus far indicates this is the case.

I'm not at all upset about anything.

Its his opinion that religion has absolutely nothing to do with the atrocities being committed by IS... I asked him to suggest what the actual motive might be, and he replies that its poverty and politics.

If that's the case, how exactly does a person go from "I'm poor, hungry and wish for something better..." to massacring whole villages (including children), beheading aid workers, committing mass rape etc... So far he's not given a very conclusive answer. His response is that they simply want "power". While I'm sure power and control is a factor, he flat refuses to acknowledge that religious belief has a tendency to make people act in very strange ways... Sometimes, in extremely violent ways.

Essentially, he'll accept any cause for this crisis, except religion... He won't even consider it as a possibility. Despite repeated cases throughout history, of humans committing heinous acts in the name of one religion or another. To suggest that IS's motive for their crimes might be their religion, to him, is not politically correct...

Politically correct? Fuck politically correct.

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