Apologists for IS
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04-10-2014, 06:39 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 06:21 PM)Sam Wrote:  ...
Its his opinion that religion has absolutely nothing to do with the atrocities being committed by IS... I asked him to suggest what the actual motive might be, and he replies that its poverty and politics.

If that's the case, how exactly does a person go from "I'm poor, hungry and wish for something better..." to massacring whole villages (including children), beheading aid workers, committing mass rape etc... So far he's not given a very conclusive answer. His response is that they simply want "power". While I'm sure power and control is a factor, he flat refuses to acknowledge that religious belief has a tendency to make people act in very strange ways... Sometimes, in extremely violent ways.

Essentially, he'll accept any cause for this crisis, except religion... He won't even consider it as a possibility. Despite repeated cases throughout history, of humans committing heinous acts in the name of one religion or another. To suggest that IS's motive for their crimes might be their religion, to him, is not politically correct...

I don't think that religion is the motive although it may be a motivating factor.

Poverty is the breeding ground
Politics is the vehicle
Power is the desired outcome
Religion is the justification.

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04-10-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
While it is true that it "should" not matter too much the fuel for the atrocity is. It does matter in some cases.

The case for religion being the cause for it is that for thousands of years, religion has been the origin and main source for the kind of fanatical and blind mindset that is required to act out in such a way for a cause.

The difference between your analogy and what is happening is that with the super bowl, its merely out of anger and spite that your side has lost. This kind of behavior would be the result of a malfunction of the brain ( psychopathy ) rather than someone making a clear concise decision to go cut someones head off because of some ideology.

It is the fact that it has been going on for so LONG. Another difference is is that almost every major religion "sports team" in its history is guilty of the same crimes for the same reasons for different ideals that are nothing more then borrowed from previous ones.

The reason behind the action can in many cases cause the action itself to be much worst.

SO, for example, If I kill someone I am bad right? What if he tried to kill me first? It's self defense and then no one cares right?
So, what if I kill someone just because I felt like it? Why would your opinion on my killing someone change, just because the reason?

Because in many cases, the reason for killing someone or doing harm is what makes the action itself bad, worst, or acceptable/good etc.


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04-10-2014, 06:52 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 06:56 PM by Sam.)
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 06:39 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 06:21 PM)Sam Wrote:  ...
Its his opinion that religion has absolutely nothing to do with the atrocities being committed by IS... I asked him to suggest what the actual motive might be, and he replies that its poverty and politics.

If that's the case, how exactly does a person go from "I'm poor, hungry and wish for something better..." to massacring whole villages (including children), beheading aid workers, committing mass rape etc... So far he's not given a very conclusive answer. His response is that they simply want "power". While I'm sure power and control is a factor, he flat refuses to acknowledge that religious belief has a tendency to make people act in very strange ways... Sometimes, in extremely violent ways.

Essentially, he'll accept any cause for this crisis, except religion... He won't even consider it as a possibility. Despite repeated cases throughout history, of humans committing heinous acts in the name of one religion or another. To suggest that IS's motive for their crimes might be their religion, to him, is not politically correct...

I don't think that religion is the motive although it may be a motivating factor.

Poverty is the breeding ground
Politics is the vehicle
Power is the desired outcome
Religion is the justification.

Well, even so... Of those four potential motives/motivators, as far as I'm concerned, only religion directly leads to the sort of behavior being shown in Iraq and Syria right now...

I can't grasp how poverty, political problems and a desire for power automatically leads to the mindless slaughter of other people, who are likely equally impoverished/oppressed if not more so...

In every case I can bring to mind of human atrocities, war crimes, genocides etc... There has always been some form of ideology or religion behind it. Simply because people will do pretty much anything if they believe it is holy, virtuous or for the greater good to do so... Everything from murdering thousands through terrorism, right down to removing foreskins.

The guy I've been debating with also seems to think that 9/11 happened because the hijackers were motivated by greed and a desire for power... Which seems like an odd idea to me.

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04-10-2014, 07:11 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 07:15 PM by Hafnof.)
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 03:27 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Religion is a tool. Blaming religion for killing people is like blaming spoons for causing obesity.

Religion is a tool.
It is a tool used by the religiously powerful to coorce particular behaviours out of their followers.

Blaming religion for killing people is like blaming stalinist communism for killing people. Stalinist communism is a tool used by the politically powerful to coorce particular behaviours out of its followers, including killing people.

Religion in this case is closely tied to and reinforces social and political forces. It is not sufficient in its own right to cause what we are seeing right now in IS territory. It is debatable whether or not removing religion from the equation would eliminate the current violence or not. But we can say with some confidence that religion is a major rallying call for IS right now. That's the reason so many people from your country and mine have travelled to the middle east to fight on their side.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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04-10-2014, 09:30 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 09:34 PM by TheBear.)
RE: Apologists for IS
Sam Harris elaborates extensively on religious motivation of specific religions. He asks the question, (something along the lines of) ~ If politics and economics are the motivating factors for such barbaric and savage acts, why don't we see Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers?
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04-10-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
(04-10-2014 04:11 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  It's the sporks, it's always the sporks.

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04-10-2014, 10:00 PM
RE: Apologists for IS
It's usually a mistaken attempt to refrain from being "racist" by avoiding blaming all the religious or some such. I was the same way for a bit, but did more digging and found the Quran does actually support their barbarism...

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