Apparently, I'm psychic...
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15-11-2012, 01:43 PM
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(15-11-2012 09:20 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 06:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  It gets worse than that. Most of psychic forces disappear under rational scrutiny.
Oh, I wonder why that is ... Angel
It's called 'special pleading'.

Gross discounters of the turd kind.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-11-2012, 10:51 AM
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(13-11-2012 06:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(06-11-2012 11:52 AM)Boota Wrote:  I had no idea I was doing any such thing. Other than his word for it I have no proof that I was. The shims are completely random with no discernible pattern. I wasn't thinking about anything, just working like a machine. But I had to consider his question. Was I psychic?

"Well, if I am I cannot think of a more worthless psychic power," I told him. "If it can't save a life or win a lottery for me what good is it?"

That would just be my luck. Psychic powers prove to be real and THAT'S the one I get. Perfect.
It gets worse than that. Most of psychic forces disappear under rational scrutiny. It's like trying to see in a mirror how do you look with your eyes closed. Or trying to remember what your last thought would be before getting asleep.
If you can still pull off the trick after your co-worker told you, then that would be really something. My guess is you'd have to forget and get immersed in work so your psychic powers start working again.
Maybe I spoiled your psychic powers by telling you the above, in that case I'm sorry, nevermind Big Grin


Anyway, I get intuitive hints quite often, but just a few seconds before they actually happen. Usually things like what number is going to get generated on my e-reader gamebook app (after I pressed the button), or who am I going to walk into on my way to the dorm bathrooms. The intuition is there, it's just so subtle that I rarely act upon it, if there is anything to do about it. It's not very helpful, but it saves me some surprises. I keep not doubting about it, hoping it will grow into some more useful ability.
I just want to make sure I'm being understood. I am not claiming psychic powers at all. My title was very tongue in cheek. The co-worker did tell me that, but I have no reason to believe or disbelieve him. I wasn't paying any attention and seriously doubt his claim, though. I just thought it was funny that if such a thing as psychic powers did exist then THAT, of all things, would be mine. It reminded me of when my deeply religious grandmother saw David Blaine and said his tricks were done through "Satanic power". I couldn't think of a worse use of Satanic power. All the possible powers of a myriad of dark and sinister forces arrayed at your command. You can control the destiny of the entire world, bringing yourself to ultimate power. Instead... "Is this your card?"
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16-11-2012, 11:13 AM
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(16-11-2012 10:51 AM)Boota Wrote:  It reminded me of when my deeply religious grandmother saw David Blaine and said his tricks were done through "Satanic power". I couldn't think of a worse use of Satanic power. All the possible powers of a myriad of dark and sinister forces arrayed at your command. You can control the destiny of the entire world, bringing yourself to ultimate power. Instead... "Is this your card?"
You're clearly underestimating the power of this skill. Evil_monster



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17-11-2012, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2012 01:11 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(16-11-2012 10:51 AM)Boota Wrote:  I just want to make sure I'm being understood. I am not claiming psychic powers at all. My title was very tongue in cheek. The co-worker did tell me that, but I have no reason to believe or disbelieve him. I wasn't paying any attention and seriously doubt his claim, though. I just thought it was funny that if such a thing as psychic powers did exist then THAT, of all things, would be mine. It reminded me of when my deeply religious grandmother saw David Blaine and said his tricks were done through "Satanic power". I couldn't think of a worse use of Satanic power. All the possible powers of a myriad of dark and sinister forces arrayed at your command. You can control the destiny of the entire world, bringing yourself to ultimate power. Instead... "Is this your card?"
You don't have to tell me, I know how diffcult is to determine whether there is anything "out there" or not. Nobody should be convinced by a single phenomenon observed just once.
I'm just sayin', I suspect most of these people with "psychic powers" (TV is full of them mediums) are driven by their emotional and instinctive nature. Whether it's "supernatural" or not, I think it's a kind of primitive animal sensitivity and our ancestors relied on it for a long time before the beginnings of civilization and thought. I suspect it literally stops working when they get anywhere near using the rational, critical parts of brain or meet someone who doubts and tries to make them doubt or just observe and understand what they're doing.

(15-11-2012 01:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-11-2012 09:20 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Oh, I wonder why that is ... Angel
It's called 'special pleading'.
Gross discounters of the turd kind.
It's not special pleading, when it's a part of hypothesis. I just don't want science to fail, because it is ignorant about other forms of matter besides the one our instruments are made of. How could they then measure properly? If we use such instruments and don't know exactly what to look for, there is only a weak interaction and random results, either within error margin or unrepeatable. I don't want anyone ever say... *in Seth's special voice* "Sorry folks, there is this different type of matter that doesn't stay in vacuum chambers very much, but concentrates in people like a freakin' aura field, we didn't think of that one! How come you didn't tell us?"

The hypothesis says, a living human body is made of both kinds of matter, so it's superior to instruments in that aspect and deserves special attention. But to get reasonable reports from a person (so we know whom to test by instruments and whom send away) is much harder than to get readings from an instrument. There is a need for preparatory field work before exact methods can be applied. I welcome that John Heron developed some methods to work with people instead of condemning them for their sinful, fallible and inexact human nature into the CHASm of eternal scorn.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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17-11-2012, 01:16 PM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2012 01:26 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(17-11-2012 12:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(16-11-2012 10:51 AM)Boota Wrote:  I just want to make sure I'm being understood. I am not claiming psychic powers at all. My title was very tongue in cheek. The co-worker did tell me that, but I have no reason to believe or disbelieve him. I wasn't paying any attention and seriously doubt his claim, though. I just thought it was funny that if such a thing as psychic powers did exist then THAT, of all things, would be mine. It reminded me of when my deeply religious grandmother saw David Blaine and said his tricks were done through "Satanic power". I couldn't think of a worse use of Satanic power. All the possible powers of a myriad of dark and sinister forces arrayed at your command. You can control the destiny of the entire world, bringing yourself to ultimate power. Instead... "Is this your card?"
You don't have to tell me, I know how diffcult is to determine whether there is anything "out there" or not. Nobody should be convinced by a single phenomenon observed just once.
I'm just sayin', I suspect most of these people with "psychic powers" (TV is full of them mediums) are driven by their emotional and instinctive nature. Whether it's "supernatural" or not, I think it's a kind of primitive animal sensitivity and our ancestors relied on it for a long time before the beginnings of civilization and thought. I suspect it literally stops working when they get anywhere near using the rational, critical parts of brain or meet someone who doubts and tries to make them doubt or just observe and understand what they're doing.

(15-11-2012 01:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's called 'special pleading'.
Gross discounters of the turd kind.
It's not special pleading, when it's a part of hypothesis. I just don't want science to fail, because it is ignorant about other forms of matter besides the one our instruments are made of. How could they then measure properly? If we use such instruments and don't know exactly what to look for, there is only a weak interaction and random results, either within error margin or unrepeatable. I don't want anyone ever say... *in Seth's special voice* "Sorry folks, there is this different type of matter that doesn't stay in vacuum chambers very much, but concentrates in people like a freakin' aura field, we didn't think of that one! How come you didn't tell us?"

The hypothesis says, a living human body is made of both kinds of matter, so it's superior to instruments in that aspect and deserves special attention. But to get reasonable reports from a person (so we know whom to test by instruments and whom send away) is much harder than to get readings from an instrument. There is a need for preparatory field work before exact methods can be applied. I welcome that John Heron developed some methods to work with people instead of condemning them for their sinful, fallible and inexact human nature into the CHASm of eternal scorn.

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A logical fallacy committed within a hypothesis is a logical fallacy nonetheless. What makes you think otherwise? Having said that, the term "rationalization" probably fits your description better than "special pleading".

Edit: Also, your extensive usage of ad hoc hypothesizing is getting tiresome.

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17-11-2012, 02:12 PM
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(17-11-2012 01:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  A logical fallacy committed within a hypothesis is a logical fallacy nonetheless. What makes you think otherwise? Having said that, the term "rationalization" probably fits your description better than "special pleading".

Edit: Also, your extensive usage of ad hoc hypothesizing is getting tiresome.
I'm just worried that some things slip below the radar of science, get it?
But it's possible that some things slip below my radar too. If so, just some ordinary brief explanation won't do, or I'd already notice. Are there any rules about having pet theories, specially those that still remain to be tested?

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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17-11-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(17-11-2012 02:12 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I'm just worried that some things slip below the radar of science, get it?
Well, you shouldn't have to worry about it, considering that these things are guaranteed to "slip below the radar of science" if they can't be studied using the scientific method.

(17-11-2012 02:12 PM)Luminon Wrote:  But it's possible that some things slip below my radar too. If so, just some ordinary brief explanation won't do, or I'd already notice. Are there any rules about having pet theories, specially those that still remain to be tested?
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Care to clarify what you mean?

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17-11-2012, 05:58 PM
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(17-11-2012 03:03 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Well, you shouldn't have to worry about it, considering that these things are guaranteed to "slip below the radar of science" if they can't be studied using the scientific method.
But what if it can? Either directly, or after some preparatory fieldwork? Preparatory, means initial cooperation without judgement and arrogance and showing some willingness to learn about the other position, not to convince, but to check internal consistency, set the terms straight with modern science, or define some new terms if needed.
I think scientists assume that psychic claims either can be studied by method of natural sciences or not at all. I say it needs a lot of preparation on the side of social sciences. We need social sciences first, when people are involved.
I guess it would mean a democratization of the scientific inquiry. Not lowering standards, only making a more gradual progress from an initial claim towards a conclusive test. It would certainly popularize science, educate the public and reduce numbers of "scientific dissidents".

(17-11-2012 03:03 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Care to clarify what you mean?
Well, sometimes I don't act rationally. I act subjectively and empirically, because I have to, either that or do nothing. This is why there are two possibilities.
- Maybe this creates an unconscious bias in my mind, maybe I'm unable to think of myself as just another crazy guy on the internet, in the world full of crazy people trying to sell each other snake oil or indoctrinate others to feel safer themselves. Which is why I get so many accusations of fallacies without understanding why.
- Maybe you assume that I'm happy with the subjective empirical approach (which I'm not) and want everyone to use it (I don't). I just say it works for me better than nothing.

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18-11-2012, 01:47 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2012 02:14 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(17-11-2012 05:58 PM)Luminon Wrote:  But what if it can? Either directly, or after some preparatory fieldwork? Preparatory, means initial cooperation without judgement and arrogance and showing some willingness to learn about the other position, not to convince, but to check internal consistency, set the terms straight with modern science, or define some new terms if needed.
I think scientists assume that psychic claims either can be studied by method of natural sciences or not at all. I say it needs a lot of preparation on the side of social sciences. We need social sciences first, when people are involved.
I guess it would mean a democratization of the scientific inquiry. Not lowering standards, only making a more gradual progress from an initial claim towards a conclusive test. It would certainly popularize science, educate the public and reduce numbers of "scientific dissidents".
Perhaps I should clarify my position. The fundamental problem with many, if not all hypothesis that deal with psychic phenomena is that they do not fulfill the most basic criteria in order to be called a scientific hypothesis. I'm talking about falsifiability. By using ad hoc hypothesizing, you can prevent the given hypothesis from being falsified for as long as you want. Let me give you a few examples for this scenario. James Randi, among others, has a long history of testing the abilities of people who claim to have psychic or supernatural abilities. All of them, with no exception I know of, have been unable to demonstrate their power when being tested in a controlled experiment. Note that the guidelines of these experiments are agreed upon by both sides before they take place. You know what? Watch them yourself and see the reactions of people after being proven to be a fraud. (ex. Uri Geller: "I don't feel strong tonight.")









Edit: The following quotes from James Randi describe my position very well.
"I can't say that they [psychics] don't exist and that the powers don't exist, I never say that. I merely say: Show me. [sic]"
"And the fact that we haven't found any psychic powers doesn't prove that there are no psychic powers. It just seems to be an indication that there are none. [sic]"

(17-11-2012 05:58 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Well, sometimes I don't act rationally. I act subjectively and empirically, because I have to, either that or do nothing. This is why there are two possibilities.
- Maybe this creates an unconscious bias in my mind, maybe I'm unable to think of myself as just another crazy guy on the internet, in the world full of crazy people trying to sell each other snake oil or indoctrinate others to feel safer themselves. Which is why I get so many accusations of fallacies without understanding why.
- Maybe you assume that I'm happy with the subjective empirical approach (which I'm not) and want everyone to use it (I don't). I just say it works for me better than nothing.
Why is it that you sometimes don't act rationally? Why would that ever be an option that you can't or don't want to choose?

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20-11-2012, 03:36 PM
RE: Apparently, I'm psychic...
(18-11-2012 01:47 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Perhaps I should clarify my position. The fundamental problem with many, if not all hypothesis that deal with psychic phenomena is that they do not fulfill the most basic criteria in order to be called a scientific hypothesis. I'm talking about falsifiability. By using ad hoc hypothesizing, you can prevent the given hypothesis from being falsified for as long as you want. Let me give you a few examples for this scenario. James Randi, among others, has a long history of testing the abilities of people who claim to have psychic or supernatural abilities. All of them, with no exception I know of, have been unable to demonstrate their power when being tested in a controlled experiment. Note that the guidelines of these experiments are agreed upon by both sides before they take place. You know what? Watch them yourself and see the reactions of people after being proven to be a fraud. (ex. Uri Geller: "I don't feel strong tonight.")
Look, I'm even surprised you use such an explicit example. As you say, what these frauds do is wrong, it's dishonest. They use the excuses to avoid the test! They promise some large, visible effects (like bending a spoon) and then they go and waste time of qualified people and media. Is that a cognitive dissonance, to show off alleged psychic powers yet never test them from fear they might not turn out to be real? Let's say, either I have something real, or I have something that it's real enough to account for all the unusual phenomena, which is not bad either.

If there are special properties, circumstances and other facts necessary to design the test, they must be disclosed as soon as possible and the test must be re-designed accordingly and repeated. I am in favor of a closer and more gradual and lenient cooperation of practitioners and scientists, because I know the practitioners or psychics. Most of them doesn't know what they're doing, they just do it. They don't have the language to understand or explain anything in technical or scientific terms. And that really doesn't help anyone to design a repeatable test. Perhaps such a cooperation is more costly and takes more time, but it also helps to educate and to weed out the frauds. I'd suggest a practitioner should first show the proof to a scientist personally, with necessary controls but on a private, informal basis and simultaneously the former should learn something about the scientific method and related field. That might be a good beginning.

Take Uri Geller, for example. It seems to me like he avoids falsifiability and has nothing to offer. There's no technology or theory he might offer for examination, no experiments of his own. And he got so much public attention he didn't deserve, because his claims were simple enough to present and he promised visible and quick effects for the viewers.

(18-11-2012 01:47 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Why is it that you sometimes don't act rationally? Why would that ever be an option that you can't or don't want to choose?
I can only act rationally when there is enough solid information by which I can make logical decisions. Whatever science positively says is fine with me, but when it says nothing, I must find another way. I observe and try not to have any opinion on what is scientifically possible or what isn't. Observing subtle phenomena is not as simple as normal research with external instruments, the attitude, attention and expectations may have a big influence here.
And I sometimes get a lot of experience. To manage and interpret that experience, I use the framework of Theosophy. I find it very helpful to make sense of it.

Today my Philosophy teacher said something... That agnosticism agrees with what is known, but the unknown is free to be explored, or something like that.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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