RE: Apparently I might even be an angel
(05-02-2014 04:30 AM)Youkay Wrote: Hello guys,
I had this what's app converstion with a friend, a moderate chirstian. moderates are the worst! He is french, so please excuse his language. I tried to apply a strategy that I learned from the podcasts here on thinking atheist. In the end, it turned out to be quite hilareous. My friend almost had to admit that I MIGHT be an angel here to test his faith, but he couldn't face it, got angry and finally left the conversation.
It is quite lengthy, but I find it very amusing Also, if you have feed back on how I could have done better, please let me know.
Quote:2/2/14 15:38:21: UB: So, how do you know which parts of the bible are corrupted and which parts are not?
2/2/14 15:41:09: JF: To know which parts, you focus on the non extreme one.
2/2/14 15:41:25: UB: How do you know which one is extreme?
2/2/14 15:41:30: JF: The one with a moderate message, the one people follow and use for the core!
2/2/14 15:41:50: JF: The one that correspond to the core values
2/2/14 15:41:57: UB: Of society?
2/2/14 15:42:03: JF: The one that the church provide at the mess
2/2/14 15:42:21: UB: How does the church know which ones to provide?
2/2/14 15:42:26: JF: Which usually provides many more values and are more demanding that the society values
2/2/14 15:43:04: JF: Which are minimal to respect people freedom
2/2/14 15:43:16: UB: If core values are not social values, but something beyond, where are they listed?
2/2/14 15:43:37: UB: How do you know what "core values" are?
2/2/14 15:43:48: JF: The church have priest, pray a lot, study philosophy, look for the good of mankind and think much more about it than we would have time to do!
2/2/14 15:44:03: UB: So you trust those men?
2/2/14 15:44:19: JF: I am not a priest, even them would not know all by heart
2/2/14 15:44:29: JF: I do trust the moderate priest
2/2/14 15:45:21: UB: How can you judge that one priest is moderate in what he says and the other isn't?
2/2/14 15:46:57: JF: Moderate or not, it a usually pretty obvious... If you have a bit of sense! You can check which part of church they are from!
2/2/14 15:44:46: UB: Also, do you think by praying they receive revelations? If not, was is the prayer for?
2/2/14 15:45:14: JF: As they dedicate their lives to help others, don't find any gain in that, and usually show impressive wisdom
2/2/14 15:45:30: JF: The prayer is a very complicated topic. Try to pray you will see. It a supposed to bring you inside yourself where god is
2/2/14 15:46:21: UB: God is inside me?
2/2/14 15:47:02: JF: Yes he is
2/2/14 15:47:05: JF: All of us
2/2/14 15:47:13: UB: Where exactly?
2/2/14 15:47:24: JF: Don't be stupid
2/2/14 15:47:29: JF: In your dick
2/2/14 15:47:38: UB: That's a bad place to be
2/2/14 15:47:48: UB: Also, women don't have dicks, lol
2/2/14 15:47:52: UB: Seriously though, where do you think he is?
2/2/14 15:48:04: JF: What we call the heart ( not the physical). Deep inside, the best of your inspiration
2/2/14 15:48:44: UB: If the "heart" is not physical, not existing in this reality, how do you know of it's existence?
2/2/14 15:49:09: JF: I hope you feel it! Else I am sad for you
2/2/14 15:49:22: UB: Inspiration, emotions, everything happens in the brain. Why do you assume that not so
2/2/14 15:49:25: JF: You should look for it
2/2/14 15:50:17: UB: Personally, my will to be good happens in my brain. Yours happens in a heart, the existence of which you can not prove?
2/2/14 15:50:51: UB: Where is that "heart" where god resides in? Close to your physical heart?
2/2/14 15:51:00: JF: You know when people say you have a good heart... A soul.. These kind of stuff
2/2/14 15:51:16: UB: Where is the soul for that matter?
2/2/14 15:51:39: JF: How about this small weight we all loose when we die
2/2/14 15:52:03: UB: Not true
2/2/14 15:52:05: JF: Scientist don't agree on that
2/2/14 15:52:18: JF: I am just wondering...
2/2/14 15:52:41: UB: But where is it? In the brain? In the heart? The human anatomy has been studied very vigirously. No soul was found
2/2/14 15:52:53: UB: Where do you think it is?
2/2/14 15:53:04: JF: Have you never heard about people with extraordinary skills? Do you believe in this...
2/2/14 15:53:12: UB: Magic?
2/2/14 15:54:04: JF: Not magic!
2/2/14 15:53:36: JF: "But where is it? In the brain? In the heart? The human anatomy has been studied very vigirously. No soul was found!" This post is awesome! Haha
2/2/14 15:53:59: UB: I am not the one who believes there is a soul. You are
2/2/14 15:54:12: JF: Yes I do
2/2/14 15:54:24: JF: Someway
2/2/14 15:54:27: UB: As such, you must have heard some secrets about its whereabouts, right?
2/2/14 15:54:27: JF: Somehow
2/2/14 15:54:43: JF: It is not palpable
2/2/14 15:54:50: UB: So you have no clue?
2/2/14 15:54:59: JF: At a level even science cannot see
2/2/14 15:55:15: JF: We break things down to a very small level
2/2/14 15:55:23: JF: But not deep enough maybe
2/2/14 15:55:41: UB: We went down to the Higgs boson
2/2/14 15:55:49: UB: Even smaller than an electron
2/2/14 15:56:07: JF: The negative weight... Many things are still being explored... Anti matter...
2/2/14 15:56:26: UB: But... You have no clue where the soul is or what form is has, right?
2/2/14 15:56:33: JF: No
2/2/14 15:56:43: JF: That s why it's a belief
2/2/14 15:56:51: UB: Why do you believe in the existence of something you have no clue of?
2/2/14 15:57:06: UB: Or not the slightest evidence for?
2/2/14 15:57:14: JF: Because I believe in Good
2/2/14 15:57:58: JF: If it's make me a good person fighting for it, I believe it's for the best
2/2/14 15:58:38: UB: What does Good have to do with a soul?
2/2/14 15:59:25: JF: I could guess your soul shines more when you do Good
2/2/14 15:59:39: JF: A guess, I am not expert on all these questions
2/2/14 15:59:50: JF: No thesis sorry
2/2/14 15:59:53: UB: Why do you assume souls can shine? Meaning they emit light
2/2/14 16:00:23: JF: Again, it's not like this!
2/2/14 16:00:26: UB: And still, what has being good to do with the whereabouts of a soul?
2/2/14 16:00:42: UB: Nvm that then, about shining
2/2/14 16:00:58: JF: The same way you tell me you know everything about the body, we still cannot do everything we want
2/2/14 16:01:13: JF: Still we know
2/2/14 16:01:19: UB: We don't know EVERYTHING
2/2/14 16:02:00: JF: Yes and as lond as we don't, there will be room for my belief
2/2/14 16:02:04: UB: What is the connection between good and soul again? Because apparently the good is evidence for you for a soul to exist
2/2/14 16:03:29: JF: Not the soul is just less healthy without the good! The energy that makes us feel good, we are human, we are physical, we interact, for sure we need an entire mechanical system
2/2/14 16:03:39: JF: What's behind is still unknown
2/2/14 16:04:08: JF: Respect this idea until you provoke there is nothing, which you cannot
2/2/14 16:04:29: UB: You said you have no clue where the soul is, what it is and in which form it is. But it's health is dependent on the good. How do you know that now?
2/2/14 16:04:48: JF: Just a feeling
2/2/14 16:05:20: UB: So your knowledge and convictions are based on just a feeling?
2/2/14 16:05:34: JF: Go read books about it
2/2/14 16:05:59: UB: But for you it is just a feeling. You didn't read books. Why should I?
2/2/14 16:07:03: UB: I have questions about you. I can't read them in any book.
2/2/14 16:06:35: UB: As I said: your knowledge and convictions are based on just a feeling?
2/2/14 16:06:47: JF: I admit I don't know and I feel good about it
2/2/14 16:07:24: JF: Answer me: what is your love for Debbie! Mechanical?
2/2/14 16:07:52: UB: Ah, it would be a very long answer.
2/2/14 16:07:53: JF: Pure attraction? Hormones? A lucky nature match?
2/2/14 16:08:05: UB: Involving senses, hormones and so on
2/2/14 16:08:16: JF: Love?
2/2/14 16:08:24: JF: Can't say it?
2/2/14 16:08:57: UB: I could explain why I feel love towards Debbie both romantically and scientifically.
2/2/14 16:10:11: UB: The romantic answer would be inaccurate, but short and more acceptable by society which values romanticism much more than facts. Scientifically, it would take long to answer, but the answer would be very accurate.
2/2/14 16:10:15: JF: There is sth for us that push us to do the good, like not killing people, even though they would deserve.. If you are not ready to do that, you are not a true scientist
2/2/14 16:11:00: UB: I can easily reason about that. Doesn't require much brain power to conclude killing people is a bad thing to do.
2/2/14 16:12:38: UB: Also, I could explain why the sense of emphaty is hard wired into us through evolution. That would require a little more, but not too much brain power.
2/2/14 16:12:38: JF: Why? What if they kill thousands tomorrow? Can't stop it!
2/2/14 16:13:28: JF: That would not be exact
2/2/14 16:13:36: UB: Well, there is this philosophy called utilitarianism, which is completely religion free and can answer that question very reasonably.
2/2/14 16:13:37: JF: Can always go deeper
2/2/14 16:13:48: JF: And will always have questions without answers
2/2/14 16:14:32: UB: As long as you can think of any for which there are no answers already, it would be worthwhile asking them
2/2/14 16:14:57: JF: Science is not exact we say
2/2/14 16:15:02: JF: Why?
2/2/14 16:15:20: UB: You say it, not me. You tell me
2/2/14 16:17:50: UB: I thought you wanted to prove a point regarding my question where you derived your secret knowledge and certainty from that the soul is healthier with good, even though otherwise you admitted that you have no clue about the soul. We are digressing from that further and further and I can't see what point you want to make
2/2/14 16:19:25: JF: It not because I don't have exact answers about non physical things that you can say they don't exist! I said its a belief that you cannot prove to me it doesn't exist! So it's a closed point already
2/2/14 16:20:29: UB: I wasn't talking about proving or disproving. I wanted to know where you got that secret knowledge from?
2/2/14 16:28:58: JF: Church, thinking, looking inside myself, feeling... Many different stuff...
2/2/14 16:30:26: UB: Other people told you and you believed it? And how do you have access to a sense that can sense non-physical things?
2/2/14 16:31:32: UB: And if other people convinced you with a very good argument, can't you just present me with the same?
2/2/14 16:33:48: JF: Yes as I mange to feel it after some time... It's surely physical happenings inside your body, how your brain control the flows and all the rest...but it's also wondering about the source of all of this...
2/2/14 17:25:05: UB: You're telling me that you can sense something that is non-physical (meaning not from this reality) with a sense for which there is not the slightest evidence or even a REASON to exist. And you can sense it so so strongly, that the knowledge gained from that feeling is so certain it became your absolute conviction. Yet, you do not seem to be able to answer the most simplest question regarding the soul in the least bit of detail.
Are you realising that that makes for a very very poor argument? I am not even talking about proof or evidence. It is a terrible ARGUMENT.
Did somebody present you with the same terrible argument and you thought it makes sense? Or is there any good argument out there that makes sense to assume that we have souls that apparently are healthier when we are doing good?
2/2/14 17:35:53: JF: Man, stop! It's a belief! Not an argument! That's why it's a belief! No proof of it! No proof against! Like life in the universe? You get it! No demonstration will prove anything and that's how it is! That's why we call it faith! Prove me it doesn't exist... Then we will advise...
I am not a library, if you want to know about religion, go slowly and read full books! No book from small group, look for book advised by the Vatican to discover faith. I'll not write the book here! Thanks
2/2/14 17:51:15: UB: I personally do not believe in things that were presented with a very bad argument.
And to make me believe in something extraordinary, I will need an extraordinarily good argument, if there is absolutely no evidence.
In short, I personally need a good reason to assume something is true.
I haven't yet in my entire life been presented with a good argument. And since you are so convinced, and I know for a certainty that you are not a naive and gullible person, I had hoped you could present me with a good argument that also helped to convince you.
2/2/14 17:55:06: JF: Look for it! That's how you will find it. There are no physical argument you will listen to! Your religion is rationality and it's okay as well. If you don't want to look for it inside you, I cannot do anything for you.
2/2/14 17:55:20: JF: Its fine to disageee
2/2/14 17:56:06: JF: You just have to understand that no argument will touch you that way
2/2/14 17:56:15: JF: So forget it
2/2/14 17:58:21: JF: The surface works according to science! Everyone believes what they want about below the surface! Deal with it...
2/2/14 18:04:41: UB: To me it just sounds like crazy talk that doesn't make the least a bit of sense and cannot withstand the tiniest amount of questioning. On top, this crazy talk is coming from adults that get overly passionate and upset when you ask them any related question until you can get a more or less acceptable answer... That is my point of view. That is how I see religious people.
I'm saying this because you want me to know how you feel and what your perspective is. I also want you to know how I feel and my perspective is.
2/2/14 18:26:36: JF: No physical argument about sth not physical = crazy! You are the man...
2/2/14 19:28:10: UB: You misunderstood: no reasonable argument = denial
2/2/14 19:29:36: UB: Being absolutely convinced about something for which there isn't even an OK argument = crazy
2/2/14 19:30:08: JF: Whatever you tell me about below the surface, what science doesn't know so far, will be without reasons as you don't know either... You will guess as well
2/2/14 19:31:06: UB: If somebody said there are very likely millions of intelligent alien species in the universe, that is not crazy talk. Because even though he can never prove it, there are good arguments speaking for it.
2/2/14 19:31:44: UB: He just guesses, but can give a very good argument for why he thinks so
2/2/14 19:32:03: UB: And I will say yes, I believe so too
2/2/14 19:33:08: JF: One good argument... What I feel, million others feel it? Or it doesn't matter... Because no one can explain in more details...
2/2/14 19:33:51: JF: The chance that a planet like ours developed the same way to host life... It could be close to zero...
2/2/14 19:34:04: JF: It is so close to hope only
2/2/14 19:34:10: JF: Same as belief
2/2/14 19:34:30: UB: When a string theory physician says that he believes that the universe is an oscillating system which expands and contract, making time flow forward and reverse, that's not crazy talk. Because he has good arguments to think so. And I would say "I respect your idea, but I am less convinced"
2/2/14 19:35:49: UB: There are very good explanations how religion came into existence, why people had the need to make things up and why they stick to it so fervently. Again, very very good arguments.
2/2/14 19:37:49: UB: If someone says there is a thing inside me, doesn't know where it is or what it is or what it looks like, but it is somewhere inside me, it might not even be real, but it is there, surreal, and it is healthier when I behave wel... Crazy talk.
2/2/14 19:38:33: JF: Yes but still no proof... Possible story... Like many times when science change it's mind... The which hunter always has more credibility... A well known fact! Still no proof and always assumption... As long as you show respect! Which is not reflected in your talks...
2/2/14 19:39:21: JF: Crazy to you as you don't feel but reason
2/2/14 19:39:49: JF: You could apply for robocop role.
2/2/14 19:40:15: UB: But when somebody can argue that something is very very likely to be true, like 90%, but there is just no way to prove it or test it, then I would still accept the proposition. Because the argument is good
2/2/14 19:41:18: UB: If someone was 100% convinced there are monsters beneath their bed who gradually everyday leach his life force to one day occupy his body, is that crazy talk to you?
2/2/14 19:41:31: JF: Good to you, once again... Still hypothesis... Who says 90%! True or not true? That is how you reason? 1 or 0?
2/2/14 19:41:50: UB: If someone was 100% convinced there are monsters beneath their bed who gradually everyday leach his life force to one day occupy his body, is that crazy talk to you?
2/2/14 19:43:47: JF: Not 100%
2/2/14 19:43:58: UB: Yes or no?
2/2/14 19:44:06: JF: Same as I am not 100%
2/2/14 19:44:16: UB: No then
2/2/14 19:44:39: UB: Is the example too difficult?
2/2/14 19:44:38: JF: Why would we have to make a choice... Life is not one or zero
2/2/14 19:44:57: UB: Let's make an easier one
2/2/14 19:44:59: JF: There is a part of truth in most things
2/2/14 19:45:27: UB: If someone was utterly convinced that he is the reincarnation of god, crazy talk or not?
2/2/14 19:45:26: JF: You compare topics that are not comparable
2/2/14 19:46:03: UB: Yes or no?
2/2/14 19:46:13: JF: Depends how he is, we will never know... If the message convinces...
2/2/14 19:46:30: UB: So he might actually convince you?
2/2/14 19:46:51: JF: Why not?
2/2/14 19:47:00: UB: What if I said it right here and now. I am Jesus and I am testing your faith.
I am pleased with you human
2/2/14 19:47:12: UB: Crazy talk?
2/2/14 19:48:11: JF: Nice!
2/2/14 19:48:19: UB: No, actually I am an angle, sent to test your faith. All of this was just a test. I had to be convincing in pretending to be an atheist, I am sorry for that
2/2/14 19:48:41: JF: Perfect! J passed?
2/2/14 19:48:53: UB: But you have proven your faith and shall be rewarded in the next life
2/2/14 19:49:47: JF: Good then! Even if I did not do it for this purpose.
2/2/14 19:50:50: UB: Your last test will only be to prove your faith a final time and swear to me, in the name of everything you hold holy, to acknowledge me as an angle
2/2/14 19:52:33: UB: Send a prayer to god and say "dear god. I have encountered your angle, seen him for he is a righteous soul, and I will obey his every word. As you speak through him"
2/2/14 19:54:57: UB: I did not hear your prayer. Do not falter my child, you have come so far.
2/2/14 20:21:05: JF: You are not an angel, you would not reveal yourself if you were... Close to bluff me!
2/2/14 23:01:32: UB: So are you saying I was crazy talking? Or do you at least accept that there is a CHANCE I might be an angel testing your faith and further testing your faith by revealing myself, knowing full well that it would make you doubt me, because god the omniscient told me to do so?
That's great! Maybe give him a push on where morality comes from next time. You focused on the soul through the natural flow of conversation but I think he thinks that morality comes from religion. Great job, he seems typically French, he probably really enjoyed that conversation
I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!