Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
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06-02-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
(06-02-2014 02:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 02:28 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Does it seem to you that most people don't even have an inkling that they are being dishonest, or does it seem that they are so in a comfort zone that the dishonest nature of it doesn't even register even a little?

That one. Also a lot of people don't have time to understand logic and so forth - critical thinking is not a skill that is taught, regrettably. So the stuff the pastor or whoever says to them seems very logical. Christianity *is* constructed as a mind trap after all. If the only logic tools you have available to you to understand the world around you are the half-baked Christian ones, you might feel uncomfortable but you're more likely to attribute that to you being dumb, than to the tools being useless.

So do they feel stupid?

I have a friend who, in her 30, I had to explain that the earth and planets orbited around the sun, and why, and how, and that it’s not the sun that’s moving around us. I shit you not, in her 30 she did not know this! She would consider herself extremely Christian, though I'd be extremely surprised if she even owns a bible, let alone has read more of it than the tattooed verse on her arm.

There are other dumb things she's said, as bad and even worse than that example. But I never could tell if she thinks of herself as dumb or not. She often mentions how intelligent she is, but I don't know if that's a cover she tells herself due to insecurity. She definitely has no clue how much she doesn’t know.

But anyway, I do realize that ignorance makes it easy for her to never question anything in her religion. And apparently to not even have ever heard of anything that questions her understanding of the world, it seems, or even if she heard them to have the intellect enough to put the two together and realize this thing is problematic for belief in that other thing.

I always wonder if she thinks or knows she's stupid. Do they feel stupid? Like these Creationist in the audience at the debate, when they hear Bill Nye talk, do they at least feel dumb as they are hearing it, or are they oblivious to it even when exposed?


I wish I could crawl inside their mind, just for a day, and have a look around. But then get the hell out of there as soon as possible.

...
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06-02-2014, 03:22 PM
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
You have to understand, when you're brought up as a Christian and you ask questions, you are taught that an acceptable answer comes from authority. So like when I first started asking questions, the first thing you are told is 'you are young, you will understand maybe one day'. Then you are told 'well, you've raised some good points and I don't know how to answer you but so and so is very clever, and he says X'... you get used to the idea that answering these questions is extremely difficult and requires one to be very clever.

It's not that you think of yourself as stupid, it's that you think of those guys whom you trust really do understand these things (and write books like "The Case For Christ") as being extremely clever.

Of course, you are also carefully taught that there is an inherent risk in being super clever, namely that the devil may find it easier to corrupt you. Hence why so many very clever people cease to follow the Lord... it makes you also a bit wary when you find yourself having dissonant moments, 'cos you fear that maybe you are going off the rails...

Depending who you are and how curious you are it can take a long time to see it for the house of cards that it is. Not everyone cares about it, we're all busy just living our lives, so some people stay in the system...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-02-2014, 03:34 PM
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
On the Ken Ham / Bill Nye thing, a fundie Christian in the audience would likely be thinking of Bill Nye in an adversarial way, as in 'he's just out to make us look stupid'. So he won't really listen to what Bill says. On the other hand, when Ken Ham says his silly shit about 'it says in the Bible'... that does sound very logical.

We are taught in church to always cross check everything against the Bible. Honest ministers always mention that we should look up the exact verses they are quoting in their sermons, and read around them for the context etc. This is one of those half-baked logic tools Christians have... checking things against the Bible.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-02-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
(06-02-2014 03:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  On the Ken Ham / Bill Nye thing, a fundie Christian in the audience would likely be thinking of Bill Nye in an adversarial way, as in 'he's just out to make us look stupid'. So he won't really listen to what Bill says. On the other hand, when Ken Ham says his silly shit about 'it says in the Bible'... that does sound very logical.

We are taught in church to always cross check everything against the Bible. Honest ministers always mention that we should look up the exact verses they are quoting in their sermons, and read around them for the context etc. This is one of those half-baked logic tools Christians have... checking things against the Bible.

That is exactly what some young earth types Im friends with were saying...

There's even a story going around that an "atheist" waitress somewhere, according to Hamm is going to read her bible...

Another friend remarked that Hamm nailed it when. Nye couldn't tell where the first molecule came from and Hamm said it was in the book he'd read.

Yea....

Also, the appeals to authority worked. They all agreed that you don't need to believe in evolution to invent the MRI.

And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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06-02-2014, 03:48 PM
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
"well bill, there is this book, and it explains how life was created..." and then the camera pans the crowd to show the smug expressions of glee that pass over their faces, as if he had just said something relevant, smart or valid....lol. Ken got the spanking he deserved, but Hitchens would have absolutely owned him.

R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens, you are sorely missed.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-02-2014, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 08:38 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
(06-02-2014 02:28 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Okay, because I have no idea what it's like to be there mentally, because I'm a never-believer, maybe you could shed some light on this. Because in most cases, like this, I really, honestly don't understand what is going on in others' heads when it come to religion.

When you were still in it, did you feel, deep down, like you were being dishonest by being so closed to new information? I do understand what you said here, that you could find a comfort in the reassurance that that outside stuff is bad, and not letting it in is good. But was there a part of you that, maybe even unconsciously, felt uncomfortable about doing so?

I realize that by some point in your life the answer would obviously be “yes” as you did eventually come out of it. But I mean, when you were still deep, deep in it? Does it seem to you that most people don't even have an inkling that they are being dishonest, or does it seem that they are so in a comfort zone that the dishonest nature of it doesn't even register even a little?

For not having gone through it yourself your questions are quite perceptive. Let me see if I can answer them not just for you but for myself as well. Might be a bit long.

My indoctrination was from childhood. The people I most trust and look up to are teaching me about life. As a child I realize that they are right in all the practical things they teach, everything from getting good grades if I study hard to not hurting myself by running with scissors. They show me love, feed me and provide a roof over my head. They give me no reason to think that anything that they teach is wrong or false and everything they do is for my benefit including teaching me to pray to God, go to church etc.

As I grew older and my cognitive abilities improved I began to question everything, in no small part to the secular education I was receiving, it is here when the first crisis came. I notice that the religious teachings aren't lining up with secular teachings. I attempt to reconcile them by questioning my family members and I'm stopped cold. Religious platitudes are invoked "God works in mysterious ways", "you have to have faith", "don't question God" and so on. I second guess myself and conclude that maybe I didn't possess the wisdom or knowledge to see what my parents saw and so I file my questions away as something to revisit at a later date.

At no time did I feel I was being lied to or that I was being dishonest with myself.

For me the second crisis, the one that made me think that all I had been taught about religion, God, love, dogma etc. was a lie came when I fell in love with a Jewish girl. This exposed all the hypocrisy of religious thought. Anger and frustration overwhelmed me, all the questions I had tucked away about religious teachings came rushing forward like a tsumami. My head spun, how could they say one thing and do another? No, something was terribly wrong, my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins were all in on the lie! How can this be? I question my sanity, it can't be that I'm the only one who sees the problems, maybe I'm the one all fucked up.

I move out, create a life of my own at 20 and don't think much about religion or God for the next twenty years. Aside from Christmas gatherings I lead a secular life, neither believing or not believing in the God I was taught.

Then like the straw that broke the camel's back the constant drippings of the religious; co-workers, family, news outlets, triggered what I can only compare to what I read about post taumatic stress disorder. I become incensed and could not stop being angry at my family, the priests, the Church and everyone who perpetuated all this witchcraft shit and infected their children with it.

And now here I am, in my heart I have forgiven my parents because they were victims of the same brain washing by their parents. I do not forgive the Church however or organized religions of any sort. I come here as a kind of therapy to interact with like minded people and to remind myself, with the help of posters like Drish, why critical thinking and science must be taught to the young and why religious dogma must be confronted at every turn.

Whoa, a bit long-winded, TFL but I feel better for writting it down. Sorry you asked aren't you?

"Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's."- Mark Twain in Eruption
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06-02-2014, 05:40 PM
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
About the MRI inventor... so what? Newton was a believer too, but he wasn't satisfied with the "science" provided by the Bible. But he also believed in alchemy, and that's the confirmation that genius and dumbness aren't mutually exclusive. The only difference is that Newton lived 300 years ago.

The real gospel: Jesus went rogue and preached love instead of genocide. God got angry and went old testament style on Jesus's ass, setting him up to be tortured and killed. The End.
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06-02-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
(06-02-2014 02:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 02:28 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Does it seem to you that most people don't even have an inkling that they are being dishonest,

That one. Also a lot of people don't have time to understand logic and so forth - critical thinking is not a skill that is taught, regrettably.

What I've observed is that as you get more knowledgeable about things, you don't feel more intelligent. Everyone else just seems more stupid. This is because when you learn new things about whole the world works, it becomes harder to imagine not knowing them.

Morondog is absolutely right in that critical thinking is a skill. Some people have a natural predilection for it but the skill can always be honed. From what I remember about how I failed in terms of critical thinking when I was young, and I think most people naturally do this, I just tried to adapt new information and ideas into my existing beliefs. It was only when I started questioning the assumptions underlying those beliefs that I started to make progress. I had come across many of those beliefs as a child and it never really occurred to me to question them.

Nothing will destroy an incorrect belief held by a non-critical thinker faster than questions they can understand that point out the logical inconsistencies.

For example, I remember when a friend of mine found out that I believed in reincarnation. She was studying biology and told me in no uncertain terms that I believed a load of crazy rubbish and we turn into worm food when we die. I argued back struggling to find ways to convince her and she thought I was mad. Although everything she told me was correct, it made absolutely no difference to what I believed.

A year later after having moved, I started asking certain questions about what souls and consciousness really were and that made me realise that the whole concept of reincarnation was logically flawed. At the very most all it would mean was that you shared someone else's memories who had since died and that is not enough to say that you are the same person.

In the same way that religious people try to put the burden of proof on scientists, if you ask them questions that point out the flaws in their beliefs it will put the burden of explanation on them.
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06-02-2014, 08:36 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 08:41 PM by Logisch.)
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
(06-02-2014 02:28 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Okay, because I have no idea what it's like to be there mentally, because I'm a never-believer, maybe you could shed some light on this. Because in most cases, like this, I really, honestly don't understand what is going on in others' heads when it come to religion.

I'm happy to discuss it, yes.

(06-02-2014 02:28 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  When you were still in it, did you feel, deep down, like you were being dishonest by being so closed to new information? I do understand what you said here, that you could find a comfort in the reassurance that that outside stuff is bad, and not letting it in is good. But was there a part of you that, maybe even unconsciously, felt uncomfortable about doing so?

No, I didn't feel like I was being dishonest. In fact, sometimes I just got frustrated that people made fun of me for my beliefs and could not understand why they didn't see things my way (hey, that sounds familiar). There was a LOT of cognitive dissonance, however. Times when someone would say something and it would make sense and click, but of course then I'd have to go, "Wow this is terrible, this is making me have doubts. I NEED to go find an answer to this right now." and I'd go ask my pastor or something. You know, find some confirmation bias (although at the time, I didn't feel like it was confirmation bias.)

(06-02-2014 02:28 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I realize that by some point in your life the answer would obviously be “yes” as you did eventually come out of it. But I mean, when you were still deep, deep in it? Does it seem to you that most people don't even have an inkling that they are being dishonest, or does it seem that they are so in a comfort zone that the dishonest nature of it doesn't even register even a little?

The thing that is hardest for me about it, is that I was deeply indoctrinated. I still have a journal from my teenage years that was a journal of my "walk with god" - as I read it, I cringe. There are times when I was very "in your face" to people about my beliefs, and always pushing on people because I wanted so so so badly to save them and thought they were going to hell. I genuinely wanted to help those people. As I slowly got out of it, I felt really bad, but mostly very angry at myself for believing it.

I think one of the hardest parts was trying not to get mad at others, because to me it feels like people are lying to themselves. But I have to remind myself that I once believed that stuff and there was "no doubt in my mind that I was correct about it." so of course... it's very easy to remember how I felt, and I know that many people feel the same way. So while I think some people are lying out of their teeth and super dishonest and manipulate others using religion, I know there are many people out there who are not and who genuinely believe what it is they say.

Then again, I wasn't raised to think critically. So of course, I never used that line of thinking, so many times it just came down to looking for answers that agreed with me and things that sounded good, but more often than not just restricting myself from outside influence that would change my mind or rather "tempt me" to lose my line of thinking.

I think for many it's the same. There's many believers who are deeply entrenched and even considering thinking otherwise is such a painful cognitive dissonance because it's terrifying to challenge your beliefs. You think, "Oh shit, I'm going to hell for this. I mean... doubting god and renouncing him is the unforgivable sin, I CAN'T DO THAT." and look for any reason to crawl back in your comfort zone. For the few who I think are willing to really look at answers and question things, genuinely who may not be that entrenched, they be able to get out of it. But when you're raised to think that you're going to hell if you don't believe those things, and spend most of your young adult life around like minded people who think the same, it is terrifying to consider anything else.

Not to mention the way people treat you when they find out you don't believe anymore. There's those repercussions as well... I also think there are probably some who don't actually believe that crap who will tell you they DO, just so they aren't outed by their community and have to deal with the social repercussions.

(06-02-2014 06:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  What I've observed is that as you get more knowledgeable about things, you don't feel more intelligent. Everyone else just seems more stupid. This is because when you learn new things about whole the world works, it becomes harder to imagine not knowing them.

Yeah pretty much. Once you end up learning more, there's a point where you'd feel stupid if you ignored things as well.

(06-02-2014 06:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Nothing will destroy an incorrect belief held by a non-critical thinker faster than questions they can understand that point out the logical inconsistencies.

Yep. Much of that is what took me away from my beliefs. I got very interested in astronomy and science as a kid, but was sent to a christian school and it pretty much brainwashed me into thinking that science was all there to trick us and lead us away from god. Go figure, YEC family.

It was not till after I moved out of my parents house and was on my own, stopped going to church and began really learning more and taking interest in stuff, that I was able to learn more about things and start chipping away at all the inconsistencies and slowly but surely toss it in the garbage. It took some serious time though.

(06-02-2014 06:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  In the same way that religious people try to put the burden of proof on scientists, if you ask them questions that point out the flaws in their beliefs it will put the burden of explanation on them.

Indeed. I remember in high school, one question that really bugged the shit out of me was when I argued with a kid who said that I was wrong about young earth creation. I told him, "The big bang didn't happen because got created the universe." and his reply was, "Well if we can explain the big bang and we have evidence for it... how do you know god didn't create the big bang?" and I had absolutely no response. So of course, I went around looking for an answer, and after much confirmation bias from the internet, decided the big bang was OK and god did it. But it totally fucked my brain at the time. It's little things like that which slowly got me more interested in LEARNING about the model of the big bang, cosmology in general, astronomy. Eventually I had a harder time reconciling it with my beliefs and slowly but surely dumped my beliefs.

Nothing is overnight.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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06-02-2014, 08:50 PM
RE: Apparently, Ken Ham enabled comments on his Youtube channel.
(06-02-2014 05:40 PM)Alexandro Wrote:  About the MRI inventor... so what? Newton was a believer too, but he wasn't satisfied with the "science" provided by the Bible. But he also believed in alchemy, and that's the confirmation that genius and dumbness aren't mutually exclusive. The only difference is that Newton lived 300 years ago.

It's just an appeal to authority and nothing else.

It's like saying... Tom Cruise is a scientologist, and he stars in movies. He is successful in movies, therefore, scientology is legit.

Or...

NASA engineer XYZ believes in creationism but invented a space toilet. His space toilet works, therefore creationism is true.

They had nothing to do with each other, and there isn't any way that creation "science" was used to create an MRI, therefore, nothing more than an appeal to authority.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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