Apples and Oranges
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
24-04-2012, 02:27 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2012 02:37 PM by wtfbbq.)
Apples and Oranges
I've seen a lot of Atheists trying to argue with Theists lately and their arguments tend to not really do much rather than to make both sides feel better about themselves, hate the fellow they're talking to, and generally not get anything useful done. To explain my irritation, I'm going to tell a story about Ted and Bob. Ted and bob both live in Happyland. One day, Ted's explaining to Bob Ted's worldview.

---

Ted: So there's this invisible dragon that flies around, protects us from other evil invisible dragons, really likes oranges, and, if we're don't properly prepare oranges, eats us after we're dead.

Bob: That's... interesting. What's this invisible dragon's name?

Ted: His name's Dragon.

Bob: I see. And how do you know about Dragon?

Ted: Well, there's this ancient book that we have on Dragon. And it tells us all about how to prepare oranges. You see, you have to peel the skin off and then there's all sorts of ways you can cut up the insides.

Bob: Peeling skin off a fruit? Cutting? That's inhumane; the only way I eat my apples is by biting it. If I cut my apples, I could get hurt and that's terrible.

Ted: Well, Dragon wants us to cut oranges.

Bob: Uh huh, but I eat my apples every day without Dragon coming and doing anything to me. This Dragon thing is a load of bull, I can't understand how anyone believes this stuff. How can you honestly say that you believe in this thing that would allow you to hurt yourself?

Ted: What do you mean. How else are you supposed to get to the inside of an orange? And Dragon tells us how to do that.

Bob: Well, you just aren't thinking critically. I eat apples just fine without worrying about Dragon. Heck, we've found all sorts of ways to eat apples. You can start at the top, then work your way down to the bottom. you can start in the middle and eat your way across. Heck, sometimes there are worms in there, but if you eat slowly enough you can avoid them.

Ted: Well, of course you have to eat slowly or you’ll choke on the seeds.

Bob: How do you choke on the seeds? They’re in the middle! You barbaric nincompoop!

Ted: We don’t choke, because the cookbook tells us to eat slowly after we peel it.

Bob: Again with the peeling, you can eat them fine with your teeth and not worry about cutting yourself peeling the thing!

Ted: All I can say is that in the end, Dragon will eat you and your oranges.

---

2 questions: Does this make sense to anyone, and does it generally portray what a lot of people see in atheist/theist interaction?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like wtfbbq's post
24-04-2012, 02:32 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
I'll admit. I laughed.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like kingschosen's post
24-04-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
That was kinda funny, but i find the metaphor kinda weird. I tend to disagree with your assessment of atheist/theist debates though. I generally don't walk away hating the person. Emotions may start to rise, but when it gets too heated the conversation usually ends. As far as useful, what are your expectations of these debates? I think it useful that we have these discussions for their own sake. It is important to keep the conversation going. If you expect that at the end of each one someone should be changing their minds, then I fear you are in for a lot of disappointment.

Now, it depends on who is having the conversation as well. Talking with KC is mostly civilized, and dare I say pleasant. When you see two intelligent people debating their positions at a university, it is usually kept within the bounds of polite debate. However, when you see people who are dishonest, rude, and confrontational in order to put another down, then yes I can agree that gives atheist/theist arguments a sour taste. A good example would be people like Shockofgod from YouTube.

I think you will find the conversations you can have here with atheists and theists alike a better experience than the ones it seems you may have been having. Just watch out for Egor, lol.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like arbmouser's post
24-04-2012, 03:08 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
Almost 100% of what arb said.

My only disagreement with arb is what was pointed out in the metaphor. You cannot talk about apple if you're talking about oranges. Many times this happens with me when I start discussion theology with an atheist. Instead of staying within the confines of theology, they will all too often try and disprove my point with a non-theological point.

Crude example:

Me: I believe in predestination.
Atheist: Oh really? Why?
Me: Because of what the Bible says here, here, here, and here.
Atheist: The Bible is false.

It's frustrating beyond anything.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kingschosen's post
24-04-2012, 03:17 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(24-04-2012 03:03 PM)arbmouser Wrote:  That was kinda funny, but i find the metaphor kinda weird. I tend to disagree with your assessment of atheist/theist debates though. I generally don't walk away hating the person. Emotions may start to rise, but when it gets too heated the conversation usually ends. As far as useful, what are your expectations of these debates? I think it useful that we have these discussions for their own sake. It is important to keep the conversation going. If you expect that at the end of each one someone should be changing their minds, then I fear you are in for a lot of disappointment.

Now, it depends on who is having the conversation as well. Talking with KC is mostly civilized, and dare I say pleasant. When you see two intelligent people debating their positions at a university, it is usually kept within the bounds of polite debate. However, when you see people who are dishonest, rude, and confrontational in order to put another down, then yes I can agree that gives atheist/theist arguments a sour taste. A good example would be people like Shockofgod from YouTube.

I think you will find the conversations you can have here with atheists and theists alike a better experience than the ones it seems you may have been having. Just watch out for Egor, lol.
Thanks - I hadn't even thought about that angle from the intro (it was supposed to be somewhat humorous without distracting from the point, which i guess could use fixing). I was trying to get at how people kind of ignore all the initial conditions - that one's talking about results of oranges, the other apples, and they don't bother to clarify that, and that's why y'all have such problems.

I don't know who KC is.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-04-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(24-04-2012 03:17 PM)wtfbbq Wrote:  I don't know who KC is.

Hi

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-04-2012, 03:35 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(24-04-2012 03:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  (1) Me: I believe in predestination.
(2) Atheist: Oh really? Why?
(3) Me: Because of what the Bible says here, here, here, and here.
(4) Atheist: The Bible is false.

It's frustrating beyond anything.
I agree with the frustration. Lets take this crude example and play with it to see if we can see how things might develop - I went ahead and gave the steps numbers.
Lets say for (4), the Atheist asked instead

(4a) Why do you believe in the bible?

What's the next step?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-04-2012, 03:38 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(24-04-2012 03:35 PM)wtfbbq Wrote:  
(24-04-2012 03:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  (1) Me: I believe in predestination.
(2) Atheist: Oh really? Why?
(3) Me: Because of what the Bible says here, here, here, and here.
(4) Atheist: The Bible is false.

It's frustrating beyond anything.
I agree with the frustration. Lets take this crude example and play with it to see if we can see how things might develop - I went ahead and gave the steps numbers.
Lets say for (4), the Atheist asked instead

(4a) Why do you believe in the bible?

What's the next step?
5) Because of faith.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-04-2012, 03:38 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(24-04-2012 03:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Almost 100% of what arb said.

My only disagreement with arb is what was pointed out in the metaphor. You cannot talk about apple if you're talking about oranges. Many times this happens with me when I start discussion theology with an atheist. Instead of staying within the confines of theology, they will all too often try and disprove my point with a non-theological point.

Crude example:

Me: I believe in predestination.
Atheist: Oh really? Why?
Me: Because of what the Bible says here, here, here, and here.
Atheist: The Bible is false.

It's frustrating beyond anything.
You're right. It's frustrating beyond anything that you don't think the Bible is false.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Erxomai's post
24-04-2012, 03:45 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(24-04-2012 03:38 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  5) Because of faith.
So naturally, I would then have to ask

(6) What sort of faith do you refer to in (5)?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: