Apples and Oranges
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25-04-2012, 01:02 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(25-04-2012 11:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  KC... Apologies. I suck today. Just generally feeling grouchy. You got a right to feel a bit peeved that I had a go at you, and I kinda said what I did about the whole always going back to the Bible without thinking. It's true that I get that feeling but I'm not sure, upon reflection, if that's not just me using a stereotype subconsciously. Anyway I went running so I'm more chilled now. You're still wrong about Noah's Ark Wink

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It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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25-04-2012, 01:04 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(25-04-2012 01:02 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(25-04-2012 11:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  KC... Apologies. I suck today. Just generally feeling grouchy. You got a right to feel a bit peeved that I had a go at you, and I kinda said what I did about the whole always going back to the Bible without thinking. It's true that I get that feeling but I'm not sure, upon reflection, if that's not just me using a stereotype subconsciously. Anyway I went running so I'm more chilled now. You're still wrong about Noah's Ark Wink

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There's a logical reply to that but I'm not gonna use it 'cos otherwise GirlyMan's gonna pitch up and tell us to fuck.
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25-04-2012, 01:07 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(25-04-2012 11:34 AM)wtfbbq Wrote:  
(25-04-2012 09:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  (9) Because I had a radical conversation.
I hope you aren't jesting with me at this point, because I don't really understand (9), and I said earlier that leaving these things untouched is what lead to the misunderstanding. Luckily patience is the way of the Sith. I mean the Jedi. Eh, either works.

(10) how does a radical conversation cause you to have faith in the Christian God?
11) I don't want to go into the long drawn out story of my conversation. I didn't believe in God, and in an instant, that all changed... nothing drastic happened - no life altering event - just God changing my heart and who I was. I didn't understand who this "God" was until I read certain parts of the Bible.

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25-04-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(25-04-2012 01:07 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  11) I don't want to go into the long drawn out story of my conversation. I didn't believe in God, and in an instant, that all changed... nothing drastic happened - no life altering event - just God changing my heart and who I was. I didn't understand who this "God" was until I read certain parts of the Bible.
I think that I understand that. I remember that passage in the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy completely changed meaning for me when a aussie told me to take the next zebra crossing and pointed to a cross walk.

(12) Could you clarify what you mean by "just God changing my heart and who I was" though? I take it that you're talking about your mind and self but if you're talking about the organ in your chest that changes things.
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25-04-2012, 04:44 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(25-04-2012 11:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-04-2012 10:55 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  On the surface, it may seem that most of us argue just to stroke our own egos and for hubristic confirmation, but that is not how it is for me. I'm sure I am not alone in this matter either.

I DO NOT ever debate a theist in attempt to convince the theist of my position. If they take away positives from it, then that's absolutely wonderful. I debate to hear their side of the subject. This view differs greatly from theist to theist at times. These are what I love to hear/read.

In cases where I debate the atypical theist, I do it for the audience. The two of us are not the only ones reading these Internet debates. There's no telling how many fence-sitters are out there. If even one finds my views convincing, it was worth it. It's in this breath that I can say I am contributing to the education of the reader. I'm sure the theist side feels the same way as me here. Win-win.

I also debate to keep my own mind sharp. It constantly keeps the information in my head. I learn things, make mistakes, learn from said mistakes, do further research, wash, rinse, masturbate... done.

No ego involved. Just a cycle of education on both subjects.


More and more, I also have become aware of how many "fence sitters" there probably really are out there, reading our stuff. It's one of the reasons I always try to put extra documentation, and references, into anything serious I post.

The Noah's Ark myth, (story) was an appropriation/importation of one of many flood myths, floating around in the ancient Near East. The one the final editors of Genesis picked, was the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh.

Read Tablet 11. It's perfectly obvious where they got it.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/

I rarely post references. I always first say "Google it". If I'm met with some ignorant comment like "Do you think Google is 100% accurate?", I will do the work for them and post references (most of the time being new to me as well).

I'm a layman so I try to stay grounded. If I get highly technical, I'll brush up on what I already have a general understanding of to obtain specifics like technical jargon.

But I normally argue from the scientific side. And seeing as how I base my arguments off science, information to back my points up are aplenty. I shouldn't have to do the legwork for the one that doesn't believe me. Likewise, I expect a practicing religious person to know their particular book. I'll check the verses myself if I question their accuracy. After all, I have an app for that haha.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

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25-04-2012, 05:18 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(25-04-2012 04:44 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(25-04-2012 11:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  More and more, I also have become aware of how many "fence sitters" there probably really are out there, reading our stuff. It's one of the reasons I always try to put extra documentation, and references, into anything serious I post.

The Noah's Ark myth, (story) was an appropriation/importation of one of many flood myths, floating around in the ancient Near East. The one the final editors of Genesis picked, was the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh.

Read Tablet 11. It's perfectly obvious where they got it.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/


I rarely post references. I always first say "Google it". If I'm met with some ignorant comment like "Do you think Google is 100% accurate?", I will do the work for them and post references (most of the time being new to me as well).

I'm a layman so I try to stay grounded. If I get highly technical, I'll brush up on what I already have a general understanding of to obtain specifics like technical jargon.

But I normally argue from the scientific side. And seeing as how I base my arguments off science, information to back my points up are aplenty. I shouldn't have to do the legwork for the one that doesn't believe me. Likewise, I expect a practicing religious person to know their particular book. I'll check the verses myself if I question their accuracy. After all, I have an app for that haha.


Yeah, I'm often really exasperated at the level of ignorance on some stuff. But I try to remember how lucky I am, to have had the educational opportunities I have, and the professors, who guided me along. I have said too often, "do your own homework". But many would not know how to even begin to navigate the resources, and when they come here, are just beginning their long journey. I figure, I might as well help 'em. WE NEED A LIBRARY, (or resource depot for posting videos, lectures, links to all sorts of subjects, and works, and books, under subject headings).



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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25-04-2012, 07:13 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
Actually I think is valid to debate theological arguments with non theological arguments, because a non theological argument can challenge the validity of the paradigm of theology, it's not just attacking a part of what it's said but the whole thinking system, if done successfully then the whole thing falls apart and then there's no sustainable theological position. That's why attacking the bible from a non theological position is ok, otherwise you'd be framing the argument biased in favour of one side of the conversation

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25-04-2012, 07:25 PM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2012 07:29 PM by San Onofre Surfer.)
RE: Apples and Oranges
(25-04-2012 07:13 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Actually I think is valid to debate theological arguments with non theological arguments, because a non theological argument can challenge the validity of the paradigm of theology, it's not just attacking a part of what it's said but the whole thinking system, if done successfully then the whole thing falls apart and then there's no sustainable theological position. That's why attacking the bible from a non theological position is ok, otherwise you'd be framing the argument biased in favour of one side of the conversation


Yes. In the end, we live in a unified world. It's the whole picture that matters. The whole ball of wax is important as a totality. No false dichotomies, please. Gods are false by science, and philosophy. All the gods, (so far), are false, when the history of their "theologies" are examined. Triple wammie fail.

The angry gods require sacrifice. Now get outside and slay them a goat. Cadet in Terse But Deadly
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25-04-2012, 07:36 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(25-04-2012 07:13 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Actually I think is valid to debate theological arguments with non theological arguments, because a non theological argument can challenge the validity of the paradigm of theology, it's not just attacking a part of what it's said but the whole thinking system, if done successfully then the whole thing falls apart and then there's no sustainable theological position. That's why attacking the bible from a non theological position is ok, otherwise you'd be framing the argument biased in favour of one side of the conversation
I'll grant you all the validness you want. Here's my question: does this work in helping the theists figure out they've got it wrong. (or even on say... 25% of the theists that see it).
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25-04-2012, 07:54 PM
RE: Apples and Oranges
(25-04-2012 07:36 PM)wtfbbq Wrote:  
(25-04-2012 07:13 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Actually I think is valid to debate theological arguments with non theological arguments, because a non theological argument can challenge the validity of the paradigm of theology, it's not just attacking a part of what it's said but the whole thinking system, if done successfully then the whole thing falls apart and then there's no sustainable theological position. That's why attacking the bible from a non theological position is ok, otherwise you'd be framing the argument biased in favour of one side of the conversation
I'll grant you all the validness you want. Here's my question: does this work in helping the theists figure out they've got it wrong. (or even on say... 25% of the theists that see it).
Only for the reasonable ones, sadly the vast majority of theist usually fall for emotional arguments instead of more logical ones, if all they "reasons" to believe in god are disproved they eventually say "I feel him in my heart" or "I been transformed by his love" and stuff like that, of course that's impossible to counter argument as it's a subjective experience. For those theist usually showing them the atrocities of religion and belief and the evidence of indifference of their god does the trick.
But there will always be those who rationalize everything and just have excuses for everything god does or doesn't, the only way for them to realize the truth is by an equal or stronger experience of the absence of god, a self realization, because that's the only kind of reason they accept to justify their beliefs, they're closed in their own worlds.

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