Poll: What best describes those agnostic about God
This poll is closed.
Gutless Atheists 8.33% 2 8.33%
Dreamers 0% 0 0%
Off track and annoying 4.17% 1 4.17%
Deeper Thinkers 8.33% 2 8.33%
Other? 75.00% 18 75.00%
Uneducated 4.17% 1 4.17%
Total 24 votes 100%
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Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
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19-06-2015, 03:54 PM
Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
'Gutless atheists' was the term atheist matriarch Madalyn O'Hair used to describe agnostics. Perhaps she saw agnostics holding on to some little hope not shared by those claiming to be atheist relevant to metaphysical issues. Was she right? As an agnostic, I think not.

First O'Hair seems to ignore the fact that any afterlife need not be better. In fact it could be Hellish: hardly something to be too optimistic about.If any form of afterlife were to exist such could form the part of some form of spiritual evolution, with beyond death phenomena embracing joy, abject misery and everything in between. Rather like this physical life.

I would like to distinguish between hard line believe and believe in a much lesser sense. Scientific belief utilizing observation, testing, peer review, and application gives us good reason to believe in scientific facts. Soft belief (faith, hope) lacks the high degrees of probability afforded by science, but in my view, as an agnostic is not insignificant. True, life may suggest a miserable partial existence to many of us, then extinction (as scientifically posited) but are we privy to the whole existential ball game? Perhaps not!
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19-06-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
I don't think agnostics are gutless atheists. I know several agnostics--and while many agnostics lean toward atheism, they like to leave the window open since they can't say definitively that there is no god(s). And really, atheists can't say definitively either, however, most of us have weighed the evidence and feel it is highly, highly unlikely that any gods exist and therefore, we are secure in our reasoning that none exist.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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19-06-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
Most atheists here are agnostic atheists. It is the intellectually defensible position.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-06-2015, 04:13 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
Self-described "agnostics" are often people who are agnostic atheists, but are put off by the label and want to distance themselves from its connotation.

Agnosticism =/= "I don't know."
Agnosticism = "I don't think it's possible to know."

I call myself an agnostic atheist, because many religious claims are defined and consistently re-defined in such a way as to be intentionally and perpetually non-falsifiable.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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19-06-2015, 04:19 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
I spent quite awhile in the garden of agnostic. I wanted to be fair and consider the fact that if "anything is theoretically possible" than one can not say with any degree of authority, "there is no god."

Then when I continued thinking about it, and doing more research, it began to become clearer that we only know of the philosophical concept of a god because of the wild imaginations of ancient humans. These humans evolved their explanations from "the lightning is an indication of mother earth being mad" to more individual gods, to more personal gods, to a caring thoughtful designer personal god, and then they wrote that shit down.

So if you can trace the lies and fantasy back to their creation, inception and assimilation, then one can come to the reasoning that perhaps it is all chance and circumstance..no god needed, and since there is nothing in the real world to indicate a god, why create one in our minds out of the deep inner fear that "what if there is one..." Thus why sit on the fence with the safety position of "well it is possible..."

For me, it was a long struggle. I tend to over analyze things. I do not blame or fault anyone else's logic for staying some version of pantheist or agnostic as I sat in that crowd for a long time, and was quite comfortable there. Everyone has to come to grips with their perspective. I am finally confident and comfortable with mine. I say there is no god because there is no indication of one, no evidence of one, no reason for one, and the only way we even have the concept is some evolving philosophical bored musings of ancient humans who desired to have the answers to everything around them, and since they didn't have the answers, just made some up to fulfill their fears and insecurities about death.

I could be wrong, and I am completely ok with that. I like the confidence of my convictions. To each their own, and I judge not...well, that isn't true, I look down with great disdain at anyone who professes to believe in childish made up fairy tales, but as far as the multiple subgroups of "atheism"...to each their own.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-06-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
My vote is simply "No."

Much cheers to all.
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19-06-2015, 04:54 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion....

Regardless of how others perceive it as uncommitted, unthoughtful, or nonfactual...

Indeed - we should celebrate those people we see as misinformed idiots.

For if we all thought the same, what pleasure could we have in knowing WE are "right"???

If you don't believe me -- it's cuz you're an idiot........




see how nicely that works???

Big Grin

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The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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19-06-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(19-06-2015 04:19 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I spent quite awhile in the garden of agnostic. I wanted to be fair and consider the fact that if "anything is theoretically possible" than one can not say with any degree of authority, "there is no god."

Then when I continued thinking about it, and doing more research, it began to become clearer that we only know of the philosophical concept of a god because of the wild imaginations of ancient humans. These humans evolved their explanations from "the lightning is an indication of mother earth being mad" to more individual gods, to more personal gods, to a caring thoughtful designer personal god, and then they wrote that shit down.

So if you can trace the lies and fantasy back to their creation, inception and assimilation, then one can come to the reasoning that perhaps it is all chance and circumstance..no god needed, and since there is nothing in the real world to indicate a god, why create one in our minds out of the deep inner fear that "what if there is one..." Thus why sit on the fence with the safety position of "well it is possible..."

For me, it was a long struggle. I tend to over analyze things. I do not blame or fault anyone else's logic for staying some version of pantheist or agnostic as I sat in that crowd for a long time, and was quite comfortable there. Everyone has to come to grips with their perspective. I am finally confident and comfortable with mine. I say there is no god because there is no indication of one, no evidence of one, no reason for one, and the only way we even have the concept is some evolving philosophical bored musings of ancient humans who desired to have the answers to everything around them, and since they didn't have the answers, just made some up to fulfill their fears and insecurities about death.

I could be wrong, and I am completely ok with that. I like the confidence of my convictions. To each their own, and I judge not...well, that isn't true, I look down with great disdain at anyone who professes to believe in childish made up fairy tales, but as far as the multiple subgroups of "atheism"...to each their own.

I was agnostic for awhile too--while I was still sifting through tons of books, articles, etc. I did not want to make the leap to atheism until I felt like I was making an informed decision. The ingrained fear of hell and God's wrath kept me agnostic while I was sifting through everything. After reading tons of books and analyzing data--I just couldn't hold onto my beliefs any longer. I also thought that even on the extremely minuscule chance that He exists--this wasn't a god I wanted to worship anyway (if God is love, why does he rule by fear?).

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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19-06-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
To me,the agnostic position is the most intellectually defensible/honest. In terms of the absolute idea of whether some kind of god exists, I am agnostic.
Yet I call myself a pragmatic atheist. In my personal definition, I am an agnostic who has chosen to act as if there is no god because there is no concept of god in the traditional, worship-me iteration that makes sense/seems to me worthy of worship. I feel that my decision to act as if there is no god is a moral one, while the agnostic position is an intellectual one.
However, I would not call the label of agnostic gutless. I think that is mislabeling--in this case, using moral terminology for an intellectual position.
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19-06-2015, 08:42 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
I would define myself as an agnostic atheist. To me there is no opposition between the two terms. I am atheist (AKA I don't believe in any deity or deity-like creature) because I have no solid proofs of their existence outside of myths and legends. I am not certain of it, they could very well exist, but they could has much be inexistent. My agnostism toward the existence of gods leads me to be atheist. To me saying that agnostics are gutless atheists is wrong (and uselessly judgemental and narrow) since most agnostics are also atheists in my opinion.
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