Poll: What best describes those agnostic about God
This poll is closed.
Gutless Atheists 8.33% 2 8.33%
Dreamers 0% 0 0%
Off track and annoying 4.17% 1 4.17%
Deeper Thinkers 8.33% 2 8.33%
Other? 75.00% 18 75.00%
Uneducated 4.17% 1 4.17%
Total 24 votes 100%
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Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
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11-10-2015, 07:17 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 12:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Then you are not trying very hard. The definition is quite clear.

No, it's not. The "gnostic atheist" claims to know "no gods exist". How can you possibly know something without believing it? You can't. The "gnostic atheist" must also believe the claim "no gods exist". Yet, their claim is represented without belief. And, no position is represented for lacking belief in their claim. It's just dishonest.

An "agnostic atheist" can be of the strong/positive or weak/negative variety.

Quote:Further, there appears to me to be good evidence that no beneficent god exists.


Sounds more like you're an agnostic strong/positive atheist than an agnostic weak/negative atheist.
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11-10-2015, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2015 07:28 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 07:09 PM)3DJ Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 06:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And in this case, that's how it should be. A default state shouldn't be saying much to anyone. That's why it is a proper default state.

In that grouping could be "agnostic strong/positive atheists", that believe "no gods", but don't claim to know. How is that a default state?

I never heard of such a claim as agnostic strong/agnostic weak before. So I suppose that would change it.

I know its not apart of that but I also always associated agnostic atheist to also proclaim weak atheist, so you could still just boil it down to weak atheist-agnostic in the weakest sense of just denying. But the point of it is being eternally skeptical or default as in not having any stance in one way. Still any concept of "nothing/nothingness" is not a stance in position of a question.

So I suppose you're right the claim on it's own doesn't because you CAN delve deeper into the more specifics of it. I would still insist within there, is where default exists because we develop with a negative zone to questions of do you believe/do you know for basically every single thing.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-10-2015, 07:24 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2015 07:27 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 07:17 PM)3DJ Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 12:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Then you are not trying very hard. The definition is quite clear.

No, it's not. The "gnostic atheist" claims to know "no gods exist". How can you possibly know something without believing it? You can't. The "gnostic atheist" must also believe the claim "no gods exist". Yet, their claim is represented without belief. And, no position is represented for lacking belief in their claim. It's just dishonest.

An "agnostic atheist" can be of the strong/positive or weak/negative variety.

Quote:Further, there appears to me to be good evidence that no beneficent god exists.


Sounds more like you're an agnostic strong/positive atheist than an agnostic weak/negative atheist.

How does the Gnostic Atheist not believe it? You seem to not quite grasp something or are thinking things are in some manner they don't persist in. Several of these positions can be even in their inner labeled ways worked to mean multiple things and be valid. The atheist may be more a positive/strong atheist in connection to the Gnostic Atheist. So it would hold both stances.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-10-2015, 07:26 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 07:17 PM)3DJ Wrote:  The "gnostic atheist" claims to know "no gods exist".

Not necessarily. Gnostic atheism may also take the form of "it is possible to know that no gods exist, and I presently lack belief in them".

As it does with myself, and a few other members of the forum.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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11-10-2015, 08:08 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 07:07 PM)3DJ Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 12:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  Read more carefully: " from a- "without" + theos "a god" (see theo-)."

You read more carefully. They're describing the root word "atheos", not "atheist". Just like they describe the root word "theos", not "theist". I would hope you wouldn't also argue that "theos" = "theist".

You really don't understand etymology, then. The word atheist derives ultimately from theos.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-10-2015, 11:04 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 07:24 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How does the Gnostic Atheist not believe it?

Take another look at your 4 position pic. It states the gnostic atheist a) doesn't believe the "gods exist" claim, and b) knows the "no gods exist" claim. It does not state the position also believes the "no gods exist" claim, because belief regarding that claim is never addressed in the 4 position model.

Look at the gnostic theist who a) believes the "gods exist" claim and b) knows the "gods exist" claim. The gnostic atheist should likewise a) believe the "no gods exist" claim and b) know the "no gods exist" claim.

Look at the agnostic theist who a) believes the "gods exist" claim and b) doesn't know the "gods exist" claim. There should, likewise, be a position that a) believes the "no gods exist" claim and b) doesn't know the "no gods exist" claim. That would be the agnostic strong/positive atheist, who shouldn't be confused with the agnostic weak/negative atheist.

If you address beliefs, regarding the "no gods exist" claim, then the agnostic atheist group breaks into two different groups...weak/negative and strong/positive...making 5 positions, like I did. Not addressing belief, regarding that claim, is just an incomplete or dishonest approach.
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11-10-2015, 11:07 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 08:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  You really don't understand etymology, then. The word atheist derives ultimately from theos.

To which the Greeks already added the "a". The French then used that word, "atheos", and added an "iste". They didn't start from scratch.
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11-10-2015, 11:16 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 07:26 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Not necessarily. Gnostic atheism may also take the form of "it is possible to know that no gods exist, and I presently lack belief in them".

As it does with myself, and a few other members of the forum.

That's not what it says on that (or any other that I've seen) 2 axis 4 position pic, there. If you think it's possible to know, but don't claim to know, why wouldn't you be in the agnostic boat?
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12-10-2015, 01:12 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 11:16 PM)3DJ Wrote:  That's not what it says on that (or any other that I've seen) 2 axis 4 position pic, there.

I am not particularly concerned with what a simple visual aid says.

Agnosticism, in its most general sense, is the position that the truth value of a given claim cannot be known. Gnosticism, conversely, is the position that it can. These are the definitions that I use when discussing the terms, as I see little point in creating alternate definitions exclusively for the question of atheism versus theism.

Others may use other definitions as it suits them. Agnosticism, as applied to the question of gods, is one of those terms that has ended up with about four different definitions which everyone tends to use interchangeably and incoherently.

It's one of those times where you have to be sure to establish what is meant, rather than which label is used. Arguing over narrow versus general definitions is entirely pointless, and just results in an uncountable number of long, rambling threads like this, where absolutely nothing is resolved and nothing useful is established.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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12-10-2015, 05:04 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 11:07 PM)3DJ Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 08:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  You really don't understand etymology, then. The word atheist derives ultimately from theos.

To which the Greeks already added the "a". The French then used that word, "atheos", and added an "iste". They didn't start from scratch.

So the root word is "theos" just as I said. Drinking Beverage

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