Poll: What best describes those agnostic about God
This poll is closed.
Gutless Atheists 8.33% 2 8.33%
Dreamers 0% 0 0%
Off track and annoying 4.17% 1 4.17%
Deeper Thinkers 8.33% 2 8.33%
Other? 75.00% 18 75.00%
Uneducated 4.17% 1 4.17%
Total 24 votes 100%
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Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
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12-10-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(11-10-2015 11:04 PM)3DJ Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 07:24 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How does the Gnostic Atheist not believe it?

Take another look at your 4 position pic. It states the gnostic atheist a) doesn't believe the "gods exist" claim, and b) knows the "no gods exist" claim. It does not state the position also believes the "no gods exist" claim, because belief regarding that claim is never addressed in the 4 position model.

Look at the gnostic theist who a) believes the "gods exist" claim and b) knows the "gods exist" claim. The gnostic atheist should likewise a) believe the "no gods exist" claim and b) know the "no gods exist" claim.

Look at the agnostic theist who a) believes the "gods exist" claim and b) doesn't know the "gods exist" claim. There should, likewise, be a position that a) believes the "no gods exist" claim and b) doesn't know the "no gods exist" claim. That would be the agnostic strong/positive atheist, who shouldn't be confused with the agnostic weak/negative atheist.

If you address beliefs, regarding the "no gods exist" claim, then the agnostic atheist group breaks into two different groups...weak/negative and strong/positive...making 5 positions, like I did. Not addressing belief, regarding that claim, is just an incomplete or dishonest approach.

It's not my 4 position pic, I have no connection to it. I don't know why you care over a simplification graph made up by some random people trying to describe something. That's not a significant chart.

So what if it doesn't list what you want it to be... why are you hung up on what some chart says meaning anything? That's not the actual representation of all there can be within the idea of the positions. The concept and positions matter.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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13-10-2015, 12:27 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(12-10-2015 05:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  So the root word is "theos" just as I said. Drinking Beverage

If you're speaking ancient Greek, and using the word "atheos". If not, the root word is "atheos", like it says. The root word for understandable, or understanding, isn't under or stand, it's understand. The root word for interesting, or interested, isn't inter or esse, it's interest. Have another cup of joe.
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13-10-2015, 12:58 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(12-10-2015 01:12 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  I am not particularly concerned with what a simple visual aid says.

Well, that's the conversation you walked in on.

Quote:Agnosticism, in its most general sense, is the position that the truth value of a given claim cannot be known. Gnosticism, conversely, is the position that it can. These are the definitions that I use when discussing the terms, as I see little point in creating alternate definitions exclusively for the question of atheism versus theism.

It was created, because there was no common usage word for having no belief, regarding the question of gods. Atheism equated to the belief that no gods exist. You can find D'Holbach arguing against theists, in the 18th century, for using their narrow definition on the wrong people. You can find him, himself not considering "religious sceptics" and "those who haven't made up their minds yet" to be atheists. You can find, in the writings of all his named opponents, that they use a very narrow definition of atheist.

A broader definition of atheist was clearly not common usage. A broader use didn't even seem to be common knowledge.

You can find Huxley lamenting that he wasn't really very fond of those narrow definition atheists, but that he was the type of person the label was given to, for lack of a better label. He came up with what he thought was an appropriate label, and it caught on quite well. Being a scientist he clearly defined it as a form of demarcation that ended up not knowing or believing. If it can not be known, due to no testable evidence, then it should also not be believed.

That "I don't know", as in a complete lack of certainty, rather than a lack of complete certainty, seems to be the general sense of the word. That's how it's used with topics other than gods.

Quote:Others may use other definitions as it suits them. Agnosticism, as applied to the question of gods, is one of those terms that has ended up with about four different definitions which everyone tends to use interchangeably and incoherently.

I've actually never come across anyone, other than online atheists, who get confused if I just say "agnostic".

Quote:It's one of those times where you have to be sure to establish what is meant, rather than which label is used. Arguing over narrow versus general definitions is entirely pointless, and just results in an uncountable number of long, rambling threads like this, where absolutely nothing is resolved and nothing useful is established.

Isn't that the result of most online debates? Laugh out load
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13-10-2015, 01:04 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(13-10-2015 12:58 AM)3DJ Wrote:  It was created, because there was no common usage word for having no belief, regarding the question of gods.

No. It was created because people wished to avoid the stigma associated with the term "atheist".

And this is irrelevant anyway. I have already pointed out that I am not arguing that one definition is superior to another. I am stating that you need to establish what each individual means by "agnostic" or "gnostic" in order to actually draw any sort of meaningful conclusion about them.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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13-10-2015, 01:17 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(12-10-2015 06:37 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It's not my 4 position pic, I have no connection to it. I don't know why you care over a simplification graph made up by some random people trying to describe something. That's not a significant chart.

My bad. That was Chas. Same topic though, unless you're defining a "gnostic atheist" and an "agnostic atheist" differently.

Quote:So what if it doesn't list what you want it to be... why are you hung up on what some chart says meaning anything? That's not the actual representation of all there can be within the idea of the positions. The concept and positions matter.

I'm not a fan of nonsense. The 4 position model is nonsense.

If you use the "no gods" claim, and ask if people believe it, there will be people who answer no, that aren't theists. Calling them such would be nonsense.

If you use the "gods" claim, and ask if people believe it, there will be people who answer no, that aren't atheists (narrow definition). Calling them such also seems like nonsense, to me. Or, if you do decide to, then it seems like nonsense not to clarify between the weak/negative type and the strong/positive type.

Simply using "agnostic atheist" doesn't clarify between the two.
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13-10-2015, 01:20 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(13-10-2015 01:04 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  I have already pointed out that I am not arguing that one definition is superior to another. I am stating that you need to establish what each individual means by "agnostic" or "gnostic" in order to actually draw any sort of meaningful conclusion about them.

"I've actually never come across anyone, other than online atheists, who get confused if I just say "agnostic"."

With them, I also can't draw any sort of meaningful conclusion about them, if they just say "atheist".
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13-10-2015, 05:52 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(13-10-2015 01:17 AM)3DJ Wrote:  Simply using "agnostic atheist" doesn't clarify between the two.

So what? You've not expounded on anything other than it feels like nonsense to you because it's not 100% specific.

Okay, well so what if it isn't? Who cares and thinks things need to be? Why do you give a damn about some fake 4 position model one way or another? Do you want a "meaningful conclusion" about someone via 1 label. That's insulting if you think that's something you should achieve.

I'm also interested in what way you find people think Agnostic means in your life. I've had plenty of conversions in real life about people thinking Agnostic meaning the various degrees of things it can mean. Just like saying before, some girls I recall using it like a "softer" atheism in their eyes or others demanding it's a separate total worldview. Even some others coining it as the questions aren't worth looking into, which may of been more accurately apatheism but they called it agnostic. (many may of been at different colleges if that also says something about the environment but it was offline.)

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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17-01-2016, 02:29 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
If agnostics want to hedge the bet, so to speak, good for them. I ain't gonna judge them on it.
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