Poll: What best describes those agnostic about God
This poll is closed.
Gutless Atheists 8.33% 2 8.33%
Dreamers 0% 0 0%
Off track and annoying 4.17% 1 4.17%
Deeper Thinkers 8.33% 2 8.33%
Other? 75.00% 18 75.00%
Uneducated 4.17% 1 4.17%
Total 24 votes 100%
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Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
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20-06-2015, 12:04 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(20-06-2015 10:39 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  No, just misguided. If you know the history of the word "agnostic" you know it was a horribly cobbled together word. Thomas Huxley coined it to mean "in between" or " not sure" or " fence sitter".

"Not sure"? Perhaps. "In between" or "fence-sitter"? Not at all.

Here's what Huxley had to say about his neologism:

Quote:When I reached intellectual maturity, and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; a Christian or a freethinker, I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until at last I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure that they had attained a certain "gnosis"--had more or less successfully solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble. And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could not think myself presumptuous in holding fast by that opinion ...

Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle. That principle is of great antiquity; it is as old as Socrates; as old as the writer who said, 'Try all things, hold fast by that which is good'; it is the foundation of the Reformation, which simply illustrated the axiom that every man should be able to give a reason for the faith that is in him, it is the great principle of Descartes; it is the fundamental axiom of modern science. Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable. That I take to be the agnostic faith, which if a man keep whole and undefiled, he shall not be ashamed to look the universe in the face, whatever the future may have in store for him.

Quote:That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism.

All quotes from http://infidels.org/library/modern/mathe...uxley.html
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20-06-2015, 12:08 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
See, the problem with the "agnostic" label is that it's vague as shit. To be meaningful it must be applied to specific claims - not just the "oh, maybe there's something out there and I don't know what I don't know so let's all be friends" type of agnosticism. Or, FSM forbid, the even worse, "lacking absolute knowledge of everything I might as well entertain every ill-defined and unsubstantiated proposition I come across as essentially 50/50" type of agnosticism.

Am I agnostic with respect to deism? Yes, because a non-interventionist prime mover by definition precludes evidence or knowledge one way or the other. Does it matter? No. Does the lack of certain knowledge on this proposition have any meaningful affect on anything else I say, do, or believe? No.

Am I agnostic with respect to specific claims of most religions? Not really. For all practical intent, no. Scripture - take your pick which one - as written is demonstrably false. If you go through enough contortionist loopholes you end up with unfalsifiable vagueries a la deism, in which case, uh, sure, but... What's the point? In the most technical sense I'd have to say I'm a Last Thursdayist agnostic too, but so what?

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20-06-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?

I dunno. Big Grin

Weeping

I'm with cljr. There's no need to state one has a position with respect to any of countless incoherent propositions. One of these notions concerns the gods. The idea is incoherent. I need have no position with regard to it until it's defined sensibly.

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20-06-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(20-06-2015 09:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking aggies. Tongue

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24-06-2015, 10:26 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
I'm religiously agnostic. I believe that doubt is necessary and good. It's like a Zen koran...I meant koan but autocorrect is just amazing sometimes...the world is weird, if you can't deal with weirdness, well, you're fucked because this world is weird and our creators, our gods, we're fuckers
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24-06-2015, 10:30 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
If you don't know/doubt that you're an agnostic, what are you?
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24-06-2015, 11:51 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
Agnostic is nothing more then certainty.

Someone can believe in a god but will not claim it to be true. Just like most atheists say they do not believe in god but certainty of being able to just say there is no such thing is rather hard as that falls on knowledge and knowledge is under the realm of Gnosticism and not the impartial certainty that agnostics are well known for.

HOWEVER, if someones answer to the "god" question is ever an "I don't know" or I "choose" to be complete impartial agnosticism and its like 50/50 or something along the lines of those, than they are lying to themselves and most definitely are an atheist who is too ignorant or too afraid or delusional to just accept it and use the term.


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25-06-2015, 12:33 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(19-06-2015 04:13 PM)cactus Wrote:  Agnosticism =/= "I don't know."
Agnosticism = "I don't think it's possible to know."

I call myself an agnostic atheist, because many religious claims are defined and consistently re-defined in such a way as to be intentionally and perpetually non-falsifiable.
How about ignosticism?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ignosticism

Quote:As with any topic, and especially in the realm of the supernatural and woo, the subject of any debate should be coherently defined. If one offers a clear definition of an entity, then in order to take a position whether it exists or not the definition of the entity must be one in which its existence can be falsified (there is a rational and logical method by which we can test the existence of the subject as it has been defined). Few theists ever offer a clear definition of God. The few who do offer a definition almost never offer one in which the existence of that God could be tested.
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25-06-2015, 12:56 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
In many cases, I think so; yes.

People who say, "I don't know" to the question, "Do you believe in a god?" are intellectually dishonest. One could say gutless. There are some notions that inherently give the mind having them the knowledge that they're there; If you believe in a god, you know you do; If you don't, you know you don't; If you don't know whether you believe in any of the god claims, you are undecided, therefore an atheist.

This only applies to agnostics who don't also think they're either an atheist or a theist; That agnosticism is some sort of third, mutually exclusive term.
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25-06-2015, 01:58 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
For the past 2,000 years, Man has been subjected to the will of the most blood-thirsty cult that this planet has had the misfortune to witness - christianityAngry. It imposed its will and those that didn't succumb were raped, pillaged, tortured, enslaved or murdered. Little wonder then that their evil religion has permeated every sinew of Man's psyche. My feeling is that many who state that they are Agnostic would state that they are Atheist but for the illogical belief in a supernatural being imposed by christian past.

Just my humble opinion, for what it's worth.

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