Poll: What best describes those agnostic about God
This poll is closed.
Gutless Atheists 8.33% 2 8.33%
Dreamers 0% 0 0%
Off track and annoying 4.17% 1 4.17%
Deeper Thinkers 8.33% 2 8.33%
Other? 75.00% 18 75.00%
Uneducated 4.17% 1 4.17%
Total 24 votes 100%
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Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
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25-06-2015, 03:42 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(25-06-2015 01:58 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  For the past 2,000 years, Man has been subjected to the will of the most blood-thirsty cult that this planet has had the misfortune to witness - christianityAngry. It imposed its will and those that didn't succumb were raped, pillaged, tortured, enslaved or murdered. Little wonder then that their evil religion has permeated every sinew of Man's psyche. My feeling is that many who state that they are Agnostic would state that they are Atheist but for the illogical belief in a supernatural being imposed by christian past.

Just my humble opinion, for what it's worth.

I would agree except for the time. 2000 years is way too much. Since Constantine and then later Justinian. Before Constantine Xianity was a tiny sect unworthy of real notice. Perhaps 3 to 5% of the population of the empire.

Happily Diocletian wiped out a few. Not enough however. Wink

Sadly he did not understand the concept of inflation and the empire suffered as a result. Then he left to grow his cabbages and the Constantine dynasty who were mad Christian nutters ultimately gained control after more civil wars. Constantine himself may or may not have been a Christian. He simply did a deal with the tiny sect for political reasons. We do not know why.

The first real persecutions of Pagans happened under Constantine's son, Constantius II. This happened I think in 350, and anyone who attended sacrifices did so in fear of their lives. Julian later did his best to restore the empire to it's original religion but by then it was too late.

Our friendly cabbage farmer, Diocletian.

[Image: nicomedia_diocletian_iam3.jpg]

The death nail fell after Justinian formerly outlawed Paganism.

The guy who really put paid to Paganism and free thought and persecuted the Jews was Justinian in the east. After Justinian, Christianity totally had control.

[Image: justinian-lesson.png]

But this is not a history thread. Blush

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25-06-2015, 03:52 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(25-06-2015 03:42 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(25-06-2015 01:58 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  For the past 2,000 years, Man has been subjected to the will of the most blood-thirsty cult that this planet has had the misfortune to witness - christianityAngry. It imposed its will and those that didn't succumb were raped, pillaged, tortured, enslaved or murdered. Little wonder then that their evil religion has permeated every sinew of Man's psyche. My feeling is that many who state that they are Agnostic would state that they are Atheist but for the illogical belief in a supernatural being imposed by christian past.

Just my humble opinion, for what it's worth.

I would agree except for the time. 2000 years is way too much. Since Constantine and then later Justinian. Before Constantine Xianity was a tiny sect unworthy of real notice. Perhaps 3 to 5% of the population of the empire.

Happily Diocletian wiped out a few. Not enough however. Wink

I stand corrected and am obliged for the history lesson - even though this isn't the History Channel.

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25-06-2015, 03:55 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(25-06-2015 03:52 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  I stand corrected and am obliged for the history lesson - even though this isn't the History Channel.

Sadly for me, everything is The History Channel.

Blush

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25-06-2015, 04:47 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(20-06-2015 05:21 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(20-06-2015 09:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking aggies. Tongue

You just offended every student studying Agricultural Science here in Oz!Unsure

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21-07-2015, 01:44 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
I haven't seen anything that can make it possible at all to know whether or not there is a god. How can I claim a stance leaning to one side or the other? A god may be so many different things, and some of those are, by definition, undetectable. So, I maintain the stance "I don't know, and I'm pretty sure you don't either." So, I have to call myself agnostic. Even though I find no compelling evidence for rational belief in any gods.
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21-07-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
I don't think it's gutless. The term agnostic just means you don't KNOW; it describes your degree of certainty (or more accurately your lack thereof) about any theory or philosophy. You can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist; you're basically saying you're inclined towards one belief or the other but don't have certainty. Claiming certainty in either direction seems somewhat arrogant to me. And as far as being "gutless" for being agnostic, I think it takes a lot more cajones to say there's most likely not a god but if there is he can fuck himself than to claim to know for certain there isn't one.
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07-08-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(19-06-2015 03:54 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  'Gutless atheists' was the term atheist matriarch Madalyn O'Hair used to describe agnostics. Perhaps she saw agnostics holding on to some little hope not shared by those claiming to be atheist relevant to metaphysical issues. Was she right? As an agnostic, I think not.

First O'Hair seems to ignore the fact that any afterlife need not be better. In fact it could be Hellish: hardly something to be too optimistic about.If any form of afterlife were to exist such could form the part of some form of spiritual evolution, with beyond death phenomena embracing joy, abject misery and everything in between. Rather like this physical life.

I would like to distinguish between hard line believe and believe in a much lesser sense. Scientific belief utilizing observation, testing, peer review, and application gives us good reason to believe in scientific facts. Soft belief (faith, hope) lacks the high degrees of probability afforded by science, but in my view, as an agnostic is not insignificant. True, life may suggest a miserable partial existence to many of us, then extinction (as scientifically posited) but are we privy to the whole existential ball game? Perhaps not!

No I would never say they are gutless. If they don't know then that is the honest thing to be. I do think they are making an error though. They are allowing the arbitrary into the realm of cognition by claiming that it is possible that a god does exist. To me, to say something is possible requires that there be at least some evidence for and no evidence against. I think "God" fails on both accounts.

I also have solid arguments that prove that at least the Christian/Muslim/Jewish God does not exist. Therefor I will say it unflinchingly. But I recognize that I am among a small minority of atheists in this regard. I always point this fact out to theists who I interact with. I don't want to speak for the rest of you.

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10-08-2015, 06:50 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
Gnostic atheists are gutless because like the religious, they can't live without a conclusion. The undecidedness unsettles them, so they jump to a conclusion. Gnostic atheists leave the realm of skepticism for that of cynicism. The skeptic waits for evidence before deciding whether or not a proposition is true, whereas the cynic assumes the proposition to be false until proven true. If we assume every proposition to be false until proven true, then we will have beliefs that don't match reality quite often.

It's generally agreed that:

skepticism = good method for having your beliefs match reality
cynicism = bad method for having your beliefs match reality

Agnostics don't claim that god is possible, and likewise, agnostics don't allow the arbitrary into the realm of cognition. The only thing an agnostic claims, is the admission that he doesn't have enough information to know whether or not something like a god is possible. Really, in the god debate, the agnostic is the only one who can't be wrong. And sure, I'll give you the fact that all of the gods of religions are full of contradictions, i.e. a loving god that murders babies seems impossible, but if god is defined as merely the source, or cause, of the universe, then I think we should just admit that we don't have quite enough information about the origin of the universe to make the call one way or the other yet. And I like agnosticism for the simple fact that for all we know, we could be wrong about everything. For all we know, it might be possible that we are all brains in a vat, and nothing we can sense is real.

Skepticism leads to agnosticism. Cynicism leads to gnostic atheism.

It's not a matter of labels for me either. I'm perfectly content with the label of atheist. It is a fact that all agnostics are atheists, and I'm perfectly happy to refer to myself as an atheist, but if asked to elaborate, I will explain my position as agnostic.
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10-08-2015, 07:55 AM
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(10-08-2015 06:50 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Gnostic atheists are gutless because like the religious, they can't live without a conclusion. The undecidedness unsettles them, so they jump to a conclusion. Gnostic atheists leave the realm of skepticism for that of cynicism. The skeptic waits for evidence before deciding whether or not a proposition is true, whereas the cynic assumes the proposition to be false until proven true. If we assume every proposition to be false until proven true, then we will have beliefs that don't match reality quite often.

It's generally agreed that:

skepticism = good method for having your beliefs match reality
cynicism = bad method for having your beliefs match reality

Agnostics don't claim that god is possible, and likewise, agnostics don't allow the arbitrary into the realm of cognition. The only thing an agnostic claims, is the admission that he doesn't have enough information to know whether or not something like a god is possible. Really, in the god debate, the agnostic is the only one who can't be wrong. And sure, I'll give you the fact that all of the gods of religions are full of contradictions, i.e. a loving god that murders babies seems impossible, but if god is defined as merely the source, or cause, of the universe, then I think we should just admit that we don't have quite enough information about the origin of the universe to make the call one way or the other yet. And I like agnosticism for the simple fact that for all we know, we could be wrong about everything. For all we know, it might be possible that we are all brains in a vat, and nothing we can sense is real.

Actually, skepticism would say that there is no way to be certain our knowledge Skepticism leads to agnosticism. Cynicism leads to gnostic atheism.

It's not a matter of labels for me either. I'm perfectly content with the label of atheist. It is a fact that all agnostics are atheists, and I'm perfectly happy to refer to myself as an atheist, but if asked to elaborate, I will explain my position as agnostic.

Really? It's gutless to come to a conclusion based on evidence and an argument that is irrefutable? How does that follow? If I can prove that the God of Christianity, Islam and Judaism does not exist, then why shouldn't I accept my conclusion?

I live just fine every day without conclusions to many big questions. But on the issue of God, I have a valid and sound argument which proves the claims of the Bible and the Koran to be false. Why should I not accept it?

Actually, skepticism would tell you that there is no way to be certain that your beliefs match reality. I'm neither a Skeptic nor a cynic. I'm an Objectivist. We believe that man's mind is capable of certainty. It's not cynicism that leads me to reject the idea of gods but reason and it's tool, logic.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

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10-08-2015, 08:11 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 08:14 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Are Agnostics gutless Atheists?
(10-08-2015 06:50 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Agnostics don't claim that god is possible

Many do. I've had many an agnostic atheist tell me that it's impossible to know that there is no god. If we can't know there isn't one then that means that it is possible that there is one. But there is no evidence for one and mountains of incontrovertible evidence against so on what basis is it possible? It is either possible or impossible. If you don't claim that it is possible then aren't you claiming that it is impossible? Or do you just refrain from taking a position one way or the other?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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