Poll: Should children always obey you, no matter what you tell them?
Yes, "Because I said so" is all that's necessary
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Are Children Slaves?
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05-12-2011, 11:48 PM
Are Children Slaves?
Slavery has been abolished in the US, except in the case of children. The law is on our side when we give them commands, when they try to escape, and when we beat them (to a degree).

It's possible to raise a child as if you were simply the police - it's your responsibility to keep them safe, but without treading on their rights. I am, in fact, a father who doesn't give his daughter orders except in the case of her safety. I try to guide her education and philosophy, but I agree with Richard Dawkins that it's okay to allow my daughter to question me or even disagree with me.

I know I don't hold the prevailing opinion, so I thought this might open up a lot of (possibly hostile) discussion. What are your thoughts?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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05-12-2011, 11:59 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2011 01:37 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(05-12-2011 11:48 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I am, in fact, a father who doesn't give his daughter orders except in the case of her safety. I try to guide her education and philosophy, ...

Yup, we're the slaves brother, we just gotta try to head their ships in the right directions, get out of the way, and hope for the best.

Breathing - it's more art than science.
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06-12-2011, 09:18 AM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
Plenty of children in the world are, literally, slaves - and so are many adults. Even more people, who are not called slaves, live in some form of bandage or serfdom.
It's not a very useful designation when talking about the legally protected offspring and the power dynamics of a North Americans family.

There are many kinds of parent-child relationship. How a family is organized depends on a range of factors, such as income, the age and gender of parent(s) and child(ren), employment and school situation, environment, cultural background, expectations and ambitions, temperament, philosophy and education, parental competence and confidence, social support structure. A vast range of models can work; any or all can fail.

Whether a particular method of child-rearing succeeds or fails depends on how well all those factors come together to make a coherent system in which the parent and child both fit and which is internally consistent as well as congruent with the larger reality.
For example, it's more difficult to raise children to an austere, self-disciplined, service-oriented standard in an affluent American suburb than in a Mennonite village. It's more difficult to make independent critical thinkers of kids who spend their day in Catholic school and their evenings in front of a tv, than those raised in an artists' commune off the grid.

In general, beating has been overrated as a tool of instruction, but the odd swat with grandmother's wooden spoon never turned anyone into a serial killer. Some kids need velvet glove treatment; others, and iron hand. Some parents are good at observation and manipulation; others are blunt and clumsy. It's all about moderation and adjusting to reality as you find it. If you like your children, you'll muddle through. If you don't like them, no method will work.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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06-12-2011, 09:39 AM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
I'm with you there Starcrash. I worry a lot about raising kids, and I don't have any yet but I know it's only a matter of time before I succumb and become a parent.

I want my child to question everything, including me. I want them to know that nobody has the right to lay a hand on them, including me. I want them to be safe and happy, but I'm not going to lock them in their rooms and smother them to keep them that way. And I want them to be free thinkers but I don't want them to be free thinkers just because I am one.

This is one of the few things in life that scare me silly.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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06-12-2011, 10:35 AM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2011 10:48 AM by Ferdinand.)
RE: Are Children Slaves?
As adults, it's understandable that you want to hit you're kids when they're being disobediant, annoying, etc (But there's a line with beating, and even a child's mental and physical tolerance.) Raising them to be obediant, aware, polite, defensive, and dependent for themselves is what I would consider good parenting; on the other hand, I don't want my child to be a drone. I'd hope that they'd grow up to be creative and be their own uniquely self-defined person.

As being only a teen, I feel like my mother's done a good job with me, though she hardly had to try, because I was literally born a tiny adult (not to brag or make myself sound like I'm exceptional-- I just never acted like a baby.) My little sister on the other hand is a bundle of satanic-horror and energy-consuming rage. But in the end, it all strongly depends on the parents, and the children (as Peterkin explained, some parents are softer than others; some kids are more hard-headed that others) including their enviroment. I come across some people at school and think to myself "Sweet baby Jesus what were your parents thinking?" or the typical "Your mother should've raised you better."

(12-11-2011 08:01 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  "Love is merely chemistry" is a deception. We are merely chemistry. Love makes us master chemists.
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06-12-2011, 10:46 AM
 
RE: Are Children Slaves?
Honestly, I'm shocked with the poll results.
I'm the only one that voted for Because I said so. That's all that's needed.
My child will be taught to respect, not only towards me, but towards everyone.
If they don't show that they were brought up correctly, I think that some civilized ass beating is in order.
If my child EVER acted like Ferdinand's little sister -no offense- I would beat the ever-living-shit out of them.
I'm not talking abuse, just spankings. I was raised being spanked. I didn't like it, but I agree with the punishment.
Groundings just don't do it anymore... I mean look at me.
I'm not saying that I would be a boring-ass-strict-mother, but my children will learn to be respectful.

That is all.
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06-12-2011, 12:11 PM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(06-12-2011 10:46 AM)insidemyownmind Wrote:  Honestly, I'm shocked with the poll results.
I'm the only one that voted for Because I said so. That's all that's needed.
My child will be taught to respect, not only towards me, but towards everyone.
If they don't show that they were brought up correctly, I think that some civilized ass beating is in order.
If my child EVER acted like Ferdinand's little sister -no offense- I would beat the ever-living-shit out of them.
I'm not talking abuse, just spankings. I was raised being spanked. I didn't like it, but I agree with the punishment.
Groundings just don't do it anymore... I mean look at me.
I'm not saying that I would be a boring-ass-strict-mother, but my children will learn to be respectful.

That is all.

And there I was thinking respect was earned, not beaten into people...

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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06-12-2011, 12:18 PM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
I'm in the middle on this one. If I ever have kids I want them to think for themselves and question everything but there is a certain point at which they will have to accept that on certain topics that they have a different opinion to me and it is mine that matters. That is how my dad has always been, if I don't agree with something he will always discuss it and listen to my opinions but if I fail to convince him them he will reach a point where he will say "I'm sorry but we doing things my way, end of discussion" and I knew to just accept it.

Sy2502, I don't think it's necessarily about beating respect into people. It can be about learning that there are boundaries not to be crossed and if they are there will be repercussions of varying severity, depending on what boundary is crossed and how badly.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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06-12-2011, 12:32 PM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
Five-year-old detaches from parent's hand and runs toward the busy road. Time for a reasonable discussion? Debate? Independent thought? Or would you be happier if the kid already knew that parent yelling "Stop!" means he has to stop, like right now, no argument, no second opinion? You've had five years to to convince him that his life should not end at this moment. How have you gone about it?

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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06-12-2011, 12:41 PM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(06-12-2011 12:18 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I'm in the middle on this one. If I ever have kids I want them to think for themselves and question everything but there is a certain point at which they will have to accept that on certain topics that they have a different opinion to me and it is mine that matters. That is how my dad has always been, if I don't agree with something he will always discuss it and listen to my opinions but if I fail to convince him them he will reach a point where he will say "I'm sorry but we doing things my way, end of discussion" and I knew to just accept it.

Sy2502, I don't think it's necessarily about beating respect into people. It can be about learning that there are boundaries not to be crossed and if they are there will be repercussions of varying severity, depending on what boundary is crossed and how badly.

That's not respect.
Respect: A feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

What is been described is

Subjugation: forced submission to control by others.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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