Poll: Should children always obey you, no matter what you tell them?
Yes, "Because I said so" is all that's necessary
No, I want my children to grow up to be hippies
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Are Children Slaves?
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09-01-2012, 03:57 PM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(09-01-2012 11:45 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  
(07-01-2012 12:01 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 12:01 PM)sy2502 Wrote:  Not accusing anybody or anything...

The agnostic shotgun. Big Grin

Lemme give you some lizard brain perspective. If you give me shit, I kill you. If your child gives me shit, first I gotta hunt you down, then kill you both. Therefore, child is identity - despite the biological classification, human is unnaturally invested with identity.

Ya know what sure is ironic? Atheists turn into a mob, try to call atheism a religion; but that shit ain't "living human worthy of respect," that's shit's evolved top predator. People start investing these words with emotional context and call it tolerance... I'm just gonna be intolerant., Wink

I have no idea what this post means.

Don't try to understand or your head will explode. I'm serious

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09-01-2012, 09:32 PM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(09-01-2012 05:31 AM)znk666 Wrote:  The poll options are a bit..silly.
What does obedience of someone's child has to do with the child becoming a hippie?
More on-topic though,i definitely want them to question everything they wish and form their own opinions.
And i am definitely not planning on using physical force against them in any way either.

They were meant to be funny. I voted no, and I'm not a hippie. But that is the perception that others have of me because I'm not a strict parent.

I hate addressing the physical force issue (it's not part of the topic!) but everyone has weighed in on it. I slapped my daughter on the hand a few times when she was 2 years old, and not in a way that would hurt her... physically. It was the fact that I was disappointed with her that would cause her to break down and cry, which she still does if I just call her a "bad girl". She loves me and doesn't want to break my heart, and because of that (now that she knows most of her boundaries) I won't call her a bad girl or tell her she's naughty if she's doing something that she didn't know was wrong. And I never shout angrily at her. I never have, and I hope I never do... to me, that's just a lack of self-control.

But what if I'm watching a kid who doesn't have that love invested in me? I've babysat a kid belonging to a friend of mine, and I've spanked him. Most of the time you can give kids "time outs" or some such punishment, but if they refuse to take any punishment you demand of them, there's only one solution left. But after you've shown that you're capable of physical force, you can get kids to obey your nonphysical punishments. I was spanked 3 times when I was a little kid, and I well remember those occasions. I don't have a problem with it, as long as you're being careful not to cause harm to your child (the human butt is well-padded).

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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10-01-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(09-01-2012 09:32 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I've babysat a kid belonging to a friend of mine, and I've spanked him.

Does your friend know you hit his/her kid? I would never let an adult hit my child.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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11-01-2012, 07:30 AM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(09-01-2012 11:45 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  
(07-01-2012 12:01 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 12:01 PM)sy2502 Wrote:  Not accusing anybody or anything...

The agnostic shotgun. Big Grin

Lemme give you some lizard brain perspective. If you give me shit, I kill you. If your child gives me shit, first I gotta hunt you down, then kill you both. Therefore, child is identity - despite the biological classification, human is unnaturally invested with identity.

Ya know what sure is ironic? Atheists turn into a mob, try to call atheism a religion; but that shit ain't "living human worthy of respect," that's shit's evolved top predator. People start investing these words with emotional context and call it tolerance... I'm just gonna be intolerant., Wink

I have no idea what this post means.

Forgive my madness. Wink

Out of three words in the title of this thread, two of them are not words. They are platforms of emotionally-charged rhetoric.

Children. What comes to mind? A symbol, and ideal; not the messy reality. People simply stop thinking with their minds and start thinking with their emotions when children is mentioned; and the same thing is true with slavery.

Ever fly? Sit next to a child, sticky with candy; screaming his fool head off for eight hours in a tin can, as Ma rests her head against the window zoned out to the iPod? You didn't wanna smack that kid? Or at least smack the mother?

Adult is human; a being of words and concepts. Child is primate; of emotional context and instinct. I am content in my moral certainty; perhaps my words may offend, but my meaning does not. Animals and children seem to dig Johnny Cantor; of course until the mother pipes up - get away from that strange man! It's the science of my reality that causes me to speak as i do - I avoid children because I know their potential to involve me in a moral - if not legal - morass. They do not know how to survive, how to coexist as a human in a social setting; they read emotional context, and a creature of love like ol' Johnny here, why that's just a big ol' teddy bear.

As for slavery, that's me; enslaved by Gwyneth Paltrow. Yet what is ironic; she has been sold to me. Anyone who tells you "money is necessary?" Slave. Anyone who is not an atheist? Slave. What need, the master of the chains, when the words bind tighter than iron? I am the insane one; that all of this (waving at my physical reality of apartment and stuff) I would toss with the merest whisper from Gwyneth. What people conveniently forget; is that slavery is security. This Kunta Kinte imagery so often at the forefront of emotional context is merely a device of those who would dictate their right, not speak of right. We who possess, are slaves of our possessions. Ain't you got no Buddha in you? Wink

Are children slaves? They better be; they must be, they cannot survive on their own. Should they be treated like slaves? That is for the parents to decide, to define; and not with emotional pretext causing over-reaction to action. I cannot honestly tell you if I would smack my kid (my experience is that boys need physical feedback - roughhousing may substitute for the rod - but I ain't even considering "words of love" can corral those little male monsters - they'll get it from their peer group if nothing else); I do contend that "spare the rod and spoil the child" represents a better ethical standard after personally witnessing the total failure Child Protective Services to do fuck-all.

And if you wanna get up-close and personal about it, I have the hypothesis of electromagnetic communication and simulation; rather than the smug sense of moral superiority that seems to ooze from the "child is human worthy of respect and should never be disciplined" crowd, I have the smug sense of moral superiority of the amateur scientist actually working for a brighter future.

So Na. Tongue

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11-01-2012, 10:08 AM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2012 10:11 AM by Starcrash.)
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(11-01-2012 07:30 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Out of three words in the title of this thread, two of them are not words. They are platforms of emotionally-charged rhetoric.

They're all words... please don't play semantic games. When I speak of children, I mean humans under the care of an adult between the ages of 0-18, or the age range at which they are still under legal obligation to live with you and, to some legal extent, you still have the freedom to punish. Outside of this age range the question becomes moot - you no longer have the legal system on your side if you strike them in any manner or demand that they live with you. Thus, you couldn't make slaves of them if you wanted to do it.

As to the meaning of slaves, I believe that is the word that is the crux of this debate. I defined characteristics of slaves in my first post and I compared the experience of being a child to these. You may disagree, which is fine - that's the point of this post. It's not a platform, but merely a representation of my viewpoint. Just because you disagree doesn't mean I'm "wrong" (no more than your agreement makes me "right).

Please read back through a few posts here. This isn't about corporeal punishment. It's about when to punish your children, not how. It's not about whether you smack your kids or not. I don't think people are used to debating the question I presented, and so they - including you - fall back on familiar arguments. Do you believe that you as a parent have the right to punish your children when they fall out of line with your ideals? For example, let's say your child wants to go to a funeral wearing his or her favorite T-shirt rather than dressing as tradition would dictate. Would you punish your child for doing this? Would you demand that they fall in line with tradition or your preferences, despite their own personal safety being a non-issue?
(10-01-2012 11:55 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  Does your friend know you hit his/her kid? I would never let an adult hit my child.

Of course he knew - I had his permission. I don't personally like the idea of other adults hitting my child, either, but then again I never have to spank my daughter. He regularly spanks his - he has a monster for a kid Tongue

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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11-01-2012, 11:39 AM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(11-01-2012 10:08 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  - including you -

Who was answering a specific poster and got to pontificating. I do that. Big Grin

(11-01-2012 10:08 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  Do you believe that you as a parent have the right to punish your children when they fall out of line with your ideals?

In my case I recognized that I was an unfit parent, thus I made a deal with the devil - my family - as that was the pre-Gwynnies age and I was just fucking insane. I consider that a completely other existence, yet even then I chose responsibility over right, and like all deals with the devil - I got burnt. Women... the ex was supposed to hate me... the kid was supposed to exploit my evil family for all the regret they were worth... and I was never supposed to hear from them again.

Are you a certified psychopath? That's what I am. You call it "games of semantics," I call it the emotional context of a life where society sees the psychopath as the embodiment of evil and has no qualms in doing so. Yet I did not have the "freedom to punish," I had the freedom to GTFO and make the best of a bad situation. So when I hear others pontificate on absolutes, I get lippy. There is no point in "speaking outside the box of my emotional context" in a generalization such as this because I have agenda.

Now that we're down to specifics, however; hell, no. I'm a moral paradigm these days. Big Grin

So let's say I find a Gwynnies of my own; any spawn of that union would be - dare I say, the way it should be? A living celebration of a union of love, whose primal instincts and curiosity will set the stage for future traditions rather being confined to the ideals of the past. How can you say there is no emotional context using words such as "punish?" I'm getting punished right now. I gotta go over to the landlord's house, call my payee (cause i'm a certified fucking nutbag) and shake loose my scratch as there's this delusional young man back east, can't wait to see this dusty ol' fuck he calls "dad."

I'm gonna go make a proper prophet outta that boy, tell you whut! Big Grin

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11-01-2012, 11:46 AM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(11-01-2012 07:30 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Ever fly? Sit next to a child, sticky with candy; screaming his fool head off for eight hours in a tin can, as Ma rests her head against the window zoned out to the iPod? You didn't wanna smack that kid? Or at least smack the mother?
I have very low tolerance for kids, their tantrums, their crying, etc. Nevertheless I still acknowledge they are human beings. Mentally immature, developing human beings, but still human beings. They deserve the same dignity of any other human being. They also need help in developing, guidance, and physical care. The fact they need all these things is in no way an excuse to say they are slaves. Being in need doesn't diminish a human being, doesn't make him/her less deserving of respect, nor does it lessen its right to dignity.

Quote:Are children slaves? They better be; they must be, they cannot survive on their own.

This is completely nonsensical. Needing help doesn't make one a slave. It makes him/her dependent, which is very different.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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11-01-2012, 02:31 PM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(11-01-2012 11:46 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  I have very low tolerance for kids, their tantrums, their crying, etc. Nevertheless I still acknowledge they are human beings. Mentally immature, developing human beings, but still human beings. They deserve the same dignity of any other human being. They also need help in developing, guidance, and physical care. The fact they need all these things is in no way an excuse to say they are slaves. Being in need doesn't diminish a human being, doesn't make him/her less deserving of respect, nor does it lessen its right to dignity.

You obviously live in a different world than I. I don't consider them "human beings," I consider them primates. Homo sapiens sapiens. A "human being" is responsible for itself; a child by itself personifies "lack of responsibility," a lack that someone must own up to. Own? Slave? There you go. Color it with whatever happy crayon makes you smile.

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11-01-2012, 04:54 PM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(11-01-2012 02:31 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(11-01-2012 11:46 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  I have very low tolerance for kids, their tantrums, their crying, etc. Nevertheless I still acknowledge they are human beings. Mentally immature, developing human beings, but still human beings. They deserve the same dignity of any other human being. They also need help in developing, guidance, and physical care. The fact they need all these things is in no way an excuse to say they are slaves. Being in need doesn't diminish a human being, doesn't make him/her less deserving of respect, nor does it lessen its right to dignity.

You obviously live in a different world than I. I don't consider them "human beings," I consider them primates. Homo sapiens sapiens. A "human being" is responsible for itself; a child by itself personifies "lack of responsibility," a lack that someone must own up to. Own? Slave? There you go. Color it with whatever happy crayon makes you smile.

No, a "human being" is a member of the human species. I appreciate your intention to make up new and unusual definitions for already well defined terms, but don't expect the rest of us to use them.
Again, not being responsible for oneself doesn't make that person a slave. When you are in the operating room, and you are under anesthesia, you don't become a slave of the doctor the moment you lose consciousness, the doctor can't rape you, harvest your organs, or treat you in any demeaning and undignified way.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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11-01-2012, 06:26 PM
RE: Are Children Slaves?
(11-01-2012 04:54 PM)sy2502 Wrote:  No, a "human being" is a member of the human species. I appreciate your intention to make up new and unusual definitions for already well defined terms, but don't expect the rest of us to use them.
Again, not being responsible for oneself doesn't make that person a slave. When you are in the operating room, and you are under anesthesia, you don't become a slave of the doctor the moment you lose consciousness, the doctor can't rape you, harvest your organs, or treat you in any demeaning and undignified way.

What is this "us?" Did you multiply? And what is this "can't?" It's been known to happen. Evidently we're not communicating here. I think I see the problem. You got money, dontcha? Tongue

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