Poll: Are you pro life or pro choice
Pro choice
Pro life
undecided
[Show Results]
 
Are athiests pro-choice?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-04-2013, 12:20 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
(14-04-2013 10:10 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(14-04-2013 09:24 PM)VoXNiHiLi Wrote:  But isn't that kind of like saying the guy is only responsible for the conception and thereafter it's not half his DNA, half his responsibility, not half his child? Can't have it both ways, either it's a virgin conception or there are two people involved fullstop.
I understand that not every child is wanted, by whichever party, but why is it when the guy does want the child he's the one who's screwed, women can make a choice, the guy in the end isn't able to stop that.

Bleh, can't even put into words what I'm trying to say..

But the discussion is about abortion, not about child support payments. I never said I think child support is great, I said in a perfect world, every child carried to term would be wanted by both parents. I think the child support system and also the way the justice system favors women in custody cases a lot of the time, etc, is quite fucked though, yeah. And I don't think anyone's DNA should matter (therefore, I reject the "half his DNA" thing), and fuck Maury Povich and everyone that's ever been on shows like that trying to figure out who their babydaddy is. I think the stigma attached to abortion is a large part of the problem here, too. If both parties don't want the kid, if there is no partner, if the woman doesn't even know whose it is and can't afford it, maybe she should consider abortion more seriously. Again, if she decides she wants kids later, she can get pregnant on purpose, or adopt.

It just seems to me, where abortion is concerned, people make a lot of emotionally based arguments, or ones that seem to say childbirth is a woman's punishment for being sexually active.

I have a friend, he didn't plan his first son. He tried arguing with me on facebook that what if they'd aborted ___, wouldn't that suck? The kid in question is 15 now and on my FB-friends list! I think it's not a sound argument at all, that the kid could end up being a good person or whatever. Had he been aborted, he never would have had friends, loved ones, feelings, his own personality. And this is a bullshit argument. But then dude goes on to say "if a woman doesn't want babies, she shouldn't be having sex." A WOMAN. The woman shouldn't be having sex. This boggles my mind because recreational sex is a thing and it's the whole reason behind birth control: people like having sex, and don't necessarily only do it to procreate. I mean, old people have sex, infertile people have sex. If sex was about making babies, then pregnant women wouldn't have sex anymore. They'd be all like, "Well, we humped successfully, glad THAT'S out of the way." I think if a woman says she doesn't want kids, she can't afford them, doesn't like them, wants time for her career, even if doesn't want any fucking stretchmarks, these are all valid reasons to terminate a pregnancy IMO.

I just don't understand the way people care more about fetuses and blastocysts than they do about women and (post-birth) children. I also have trouble understanding why people care so much about having biological children, but that's a different discussion I suppose.

Nah, nah, not what I was on about... what I meant was, if a woman gets pregnant, and she doesn't want the kid but the guy does, how come the guy has no say in the process, it's half his kid, and while not all men view a child as a real thing until it's born some do...
Meh whatever... I get that women shouldn't have to go through the whole thing blah blah, but fuck, having an abortion IS a big deal, it screws with your head, don't tell me there is one single woman out there who has had one and walked away unscathed, not to mention the risks involved, accidental infertility as a result... etc..
Yes women should have the choice, far better to get it done in a safe sterile environment than some back street butcher, because even if it's illegal it's still going to happen, but no it shouldn't be the knee jerk reaction to an unwanted pregnancy...

Not that adoption is any better, but that's a whole 'nother discussion...

Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2013, 12:40 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
I'm saying if the guy wants a kid, he can go knock up some other woman. Why does he need that particular fetus? That's why I think he has no say, but you seem to be valuing the whole "DNA contribution" thing which i view as unimportant. I'd say the guy, if he wants a baby, can go make another. If he wants a baby with that woman, I think he should wait until she wants it, too.

Quote:but fuck, having an abortion IS a big deal
Did anyone say it wasn't? I know I've said repeatedly in posts that people need to be more responsible about birth control so they can reduce the need to abortions... The problem is people keep having unprotected sex (and sometime birth control fails).
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes amyb's post
15-04-2013, 12:57 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
Ok, fair point, I guess I'm just not sure we should be throwing away "life" in such a free and easy manner... makes for drawing a line in the sand so much more difficult I'd say.
But then you'd be getting into yet another whole other topic, so hmm, get your point, can see it, just not 100% sure it quite fits into the real world where emotions screw the nice lil logic circuits up... yah know?

Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2013, 01:01 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
I think the guy should have a say in the matter, but ultimately the decision has to be made by the woman.
Thinking in terms of who has the better right to decide is a wrong perspective, parenthood is something to be treated as a team, not as a competition, so the woman should hear the reasons and needs of the guy because it took the two to make the baby. But she has to make the decision, because is her body and no one, not in any circumstance, has the right to decide what other people do with their bodies.

So the woman should hear the guy because it's the fair and responsible thing to do, in order to have all the tools to make the best decision possible in her particular situation.

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2013, 02:10 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
(14-04-2013 08:35 PM)TheBarkingSnail Wrote:  
(14-04-2013 04:36 PM)Vera Wrote:  Another thing I don't give a fuck about, is your culture. You can insult whatever you want how much you want.
Our, my deer. Our. Try and stand outside as much as you like, the headlights have never the less captivated you.

Quote:Piling insults on a member of this forum (that you don't even know) on the other hand? Pathetic.
The only pathetic thing about me, is my penis. I'm hung like an ant, you see. That's probably the crux of the issue. All us trolls are of similar endowment.

Quote:And if you bothered to actually read my posts, you'd find out that there isn't a single insult in them. Can you say the same about yours?
You don't need to draw upon your vocabulary of expletives to be insulting, my dear.

Quote:Or any point at all?
Only the one I cover with my ten gallon hat.
I'm only going so say this one last time and then I'm done here, because you're nowhere near coherent or interesting enough to be worth the seconds I waste reading your "posts": do you really think that made you sound witty or as if you'd actually said something that isn't just a pile of words meant to masturbate your obviously incredibly fragile little ego, since you've been reading insults in posts containing none, while all the time hurling your own pitiful attempts at jokes and insults at others?

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2013, 03:20 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
(15-04-2013 12:57 AM)VoXNiHiLi Wrote:  Ok, fair point, I guess I'm just not sure we should be throwing away "life" in such a free and easy manner... makes for drawing a line in the sand so much more difficult I'd say.
But then you'd be getting into yet another whole other topic, so hmm, get your point, can see it, just not 100% sure it quite fits into the real world where emotions screw the nice lil logic circuits up... yah know?

This is the thing I don't get, the idea of "throwing away life." This assumes that procreation is always better than no procreation, which I don't agree with. What I am concerned with is quality of life, not quantity of lives. From my point of view, people should not just be procreating in such a "free and easy manner"; they should think about it for a long time, it's a big decision, they should be ready and they should want it (I'm not saying anything against unplanned babies from people who then decide they want it, I know lots of people in that situation, too, I'm just saying that ideally, babies would be wanted and planned). They should think about the kid's future, their finances, lots of stuff.

I do agree about people and emotions though. Most people do not think logically about anything, certainly not about babymaking.
Quote:I think the guy should have a say in the matter, but ultimately the decision has to be made by the woman.
That's what I said: it should be discussed, but legally, the woman should be the decision-maker.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2013, 04:40 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
(14-04-2013 11:50 AM)TheBarkingSnail Wrote:  ...
Given that each are equally responsible for the pregnancy?

I don't know if this is a UK vs USA distinction but in my little world of governance and management, we use the terms 'accountability' and 'responsibility'.

Example: The lady at the head of the Chinese company that was found guilty of allowing melamine into babies milk was executed. She was ultimately accountable for it happening even though she was not personally responsible for the criminal act.

So I would say that both parties - sperm donor and sperm receiver - were equally accountable and responsible for the conception (with the exception of rape) but only the female is responsible for the following 9 months of pregnancy.

I.e. there is a distinction between getting pregnant and being pregnant.

Many countries have laws that attempt to ensure that the father has on-going 'accountability' during gestation and beyond but in no way would he be 'responsible' for the pregnancy.




[/anal-definition-bit ] Carry on.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like DLJ's post
16-04-2013, 09:38 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
I am both.
I am pro-choice. But if it turns out a woman is carrying my child I will beg her not to abort it. (unless there are serious health risks)
I could never live with the thought of the child that could have been.

Aspiring optimist
Eternal Pragmatist.
With the uncanny ability to see all sides in every argument.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Caveman's post
16-04-2013, 10:08 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
(16-04-2013 09:38 AM)Caveman Wrote:  I am both.
I am pro-choice. But if it turns out a woman is carrying my child I will beg her not to abort it. (unless there are serious health risks)
I could never live with the thought of the child that could have been.

What about all those children that could have been when you have sex that doesn't result in pregnancy? Or when you masturbate?

Seriously, 'the child that could have been' argument is not compelling.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
16-04-2013, 10:11 AM
RE: Are athiests pro-choice?
(15-04-2013 04:40 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(14-04-2013 11:50 AM)TheBarkingSnail Wrote:  ...
Given that each are equally responsible for the pregnancy?

I don't know if this is a UK vs USA distinction but in my little world of governance and management, we use the terms 'accountability' and 'responsibility'.

Example: The lady at the head of the Chinese company that was found guilty of allowing melamine into babies milk was executed. She was ultimately accountable for it happening even though she was not personally responsible for the criminal act.

So I would say that both parties - sperm donor and sperm receiver - were equally accountable and responsible for the conception (with the exception of rape) but only the female is responsible for the following 9 months of pregnancy.

I.e. there is a distinction between getting pregnant and being pregnant.

Many countries have laws that attempt to ensure that the father has on-going 'accountability' during gestation and beyond but in no way would he be 'responsible' for the pregnancy.




[/anal-definition-bit ] Carry on.

I just used "responsible" in a broad way. Thanks for clarifying Thumbsup

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: