Are christians sad Jesus died?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-04-2014, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2014 03:06 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
(03-04-2014 01:34 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(03-04-2014 11:52 AM)Charis Wrote:  Not quite. I'm going to go into some Trinitarian theology here, so bear with me.

Per the doctrine of the Trinity, there is one god, but there are 3 "persons" that are part of this "Godhead." Yes, it's called a Godhead. It's a difficult concept for many Christians and others to comprehend. But basically, this one god is divided into 3 parts, or 3 persons. These 3 persons (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost) are not each other. They are entirely distinct from one another with different roles, different functions, etc... but they all make up the one God. You might think of it like a triangle. Each corner is totally distinct from the other corners, but they are all part of the same triangle.

Meh. So anyway, there's the Trinity in a nutshell. So when you're talking to a Christian and they mention the trinity, you have an idea of what it is they're referring to.
Which branch of Christianity is this from? I'm just curious because I was raised Catholic and the Trinity is explained somewhat differently there. By Catholic doctrine, there are the same 3 persons in God, but each is wholly and completely God. They are not "parts" of God so the triangle analogy would not work. Growing up Catholic, I could never wrap my head around this. I couldn't help, but think of them more like the triangle analogy you gave, but I also knew that wasn't true to what I had been taught.

Don't feel bad. Aquinas said if anyone said they understood it, they're lying. Even *he* knew it was a *mystery*, (cough cough). BTW they're not the "same" three persons. They're (said to be) 3 distinct persons, yet one god. It's actually definitionally self-refuting. It can't be both, and both sets of words actually mean what each part says, (with the meanings of the terms actually holding any legitimate meaning content.) As Dawkins said to Cardinal Pell in their debate, in talking about transubstantiation : "Well whatever you mean by using those words (referring to "substance" and "accident") it's not what normal human beings mean, when they normally use those words in the English language". It's not "monotheism", except "by contortion". (If Jesus actually was "god" yet did not really want to suffer and die, and he admitted he didn't "yet not MY WILL, but thine be done", then there are TWO "wills" operating there. That ain't "one" anything, (unless god has a multiple personality disorder).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
03-04-2014, 03:13 PM
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
(03-04-2014 02:50 PM)Charis Wrote:  
(03-04-2014 01:34 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Which branch of Christianity is this from? I'm just curious because I was raised Catholic and the Trinity is explained somewhat differently there. By Catholic doctrine, there are the same 3 persons in God, but each is wholly and completely God. They are not "parts" of God so the triangle analogy would not work. Growing up Catholic, I could never wrap my head around this. I couldn't help, but think of them more like the triangle analogy you gave, but I also knew that wasn't true to what I had been taught.

Yes, they would be considered entirely God, but God was in 3 parts. Each of these parts being entirely God, but not the ENTIRETY OF God.

Like each corner of the triangle being entirely part of the triangle but not making up the entirety OF the triangle. The triangle analogy is probably not a perfect analogy.

In Catholicism, each is supposedly the entirety of God.

This explains it better:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...s2c1p2.htm
Quote:The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

Not that the above makes it anymore understandable or sensible though. Tongue

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Impulse's post
03-04-2014, 03:19 PM
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
Ah, I see I see.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Charis's post
03-04-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
(03-04-2014 03:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-04-2014 01:34 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Which branch of Christianity is this from? I'm just curious because I was raised Catholic and the Trinity is explained somewhat differently there. By Catholic doctrine, there are the same 3 persons in God, but each is wholly and completely God. They are not "parts" of God so the triangle analogy would not work. Growing up Catholic, I could never wrap my head around this. I couldn't help, but think of them more like the triangle analogy you gave, but I also knew that wasn't true to what I had been taught.

Don't feel bad. Aquinas said if anyone said they understood it, they're lying. Even *he* knew it was a *mystery*, (cough cough). BTW they're not the "same" three persons. They're (said to be) 3 distinct persons, yet one god. It's actually definitionally self-refuting. It can't be both, and both sets of words actually mean what each part says, (with the meanings of the terms actually holding any legitimate meaning content.) As Dawkins said to Cardinal Pell in their debate, in talking about transubstantiation : "Well whatever you mean by using those words (referring to "substance" and "accident") it's not what normal human beings mean, when they normally use those words in the English language". It's not "monotheism", except "by contortion". (If Jesus actually was "god" yet did not really want to suffer and die, and he admitted he didn't "yet not MY WILL, but thine be done", then there are TWO "wills" operating there. That ain't "one" anything, (unless god has a multiple personality disorder).
Thanks, but that wasn't what I meant. I meant "the same 3 persons as in the way Charis had defined it", not that they are the same as each other. Although oddly enough, the quote I just posted in my reply to Charis says ""The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is", but then goes on to say they are "really distinct". It's almost like the doctrine says they are both distinct and not distinct. But I like what you posted that Dawkins said and I think the Catholic church even admits that this is true. They don't know how to explain it, so the words they use are as close as they can get while they admit the words are inadequate. It's stupid that they never figure out (or admit) that it's difficult to explain because the proposed concept is impossible!

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Impulse's post
03-04-2014, 04:19 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2014 05:58 AM by RobbyPants.)
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
(03-04-2014 11:52 AM)Charis Wrote:  Not quite. I'm going to go into some Trinitarian theology here, so bear with me.

Per the doctrine of the Trinity, there is one god, but there are 3 "persons" that are part of this "Godhead." Yes, it's called a Godhead. It's a difficult concept for many Christians and others to comprehend. But basically, this one god is divided into 3 parts, or 3 persons. These 3 persons (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost) are not each other. They are entirely distinct from one another with different roles, different functions, etc... but they all make up the one God. You might think of it like a triangle. Each corner is totally distinct from the other corners, but they are all part of the same triangle.

Meh. So anyway, there's the Trinity in a nutshell. So when you're talking to a Christian and they mention the trinity, you have an idea of what it is they're referring to.

I remember being taught that, too. From what I can understand, the concept of the Trinity exists to satisfy two different beliefs as to whether or not Jesus was divine, but I could be wrong.

That being said, the whole notion of them simultaneously being the same and distinct is double-speak. It's them trying to claim to be monotheistic while actually being polytheistic. They're staring a giant contradiction right in the face and gleefully eating it with a spoon.


Edit: Switched the order of gleefully and eating, as I added gleefully after the fact and put it in the wrong place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RobbyPants's post
03-04-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
They're supposed to be happy because if their boy died of old age it wouldn't be much of a cult.

As happy as they are about it they do seem to be pissed at the jews for killing him.

Something of a non sequitur.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2014, 06:38 PM
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
(03-04-2014 04:19 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(03-04-2014 11:52 AM)Charis Wrote:  Not quite. I'm going to go into some Trinitarian theology here, so bear with me.

Per the doctrine of the Trinity, there is one god, but there are 3 "persons" that are part of this "Godhead." Yes, it's called a Godhead. It's a difficult concept for many Christians and others to comprehend. But basically, this one god is divided into 3 parts, or 3 persons. These 3 persons (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost) are not each other. They are entirely distinct from one another with different roles, different functions, etc... but they all make up the one God. You might think of it like a triangle. Each corner is totally distinct from the other corners, but they are all part of the same triangle.

Meh. So anyway, there's the Trinity in a nutshell. So when you're talking to a Christian and they mention the trinity, you have an idea of what it is they're referring to.

I remember being taught that, too. From what I can understand, the concept of the Trinity exists to satisfy two different beliefs as to whether or not Jesus was divine, but I could be wrong.

That being said, the whole notion of them simultaneously being the same and distinct is double-speak. It's them trying to claim to be monotheistic while actually being polytheistic. They're staring a giant contradiction right in the face and eating gleefully it with a spoon.

"It's them trying to claim to be monotheistic while actually being polytheistic. They're staring a giant contradiction right in the face and eating gleefully it with a spoon."
Love it! Well said!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2014, 06:52 PM
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
(03-04-2014 05:51 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  They're supposed to be happy because if their boy died of old age it wouldn't be much of a cult.

As happy as they are about it they do seem to be pissed at the jews for killing him.

Something of a non sequitur.

Yeah...as if being arrested by 600 Roman soldiers, and then crucified under Pilate's orders was being killed by "the Jews" (his own people!)
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2014, 08:23 PM
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
(03-04-2014 05:51 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  As happy as they are about it they do seem to be pissed at the jews for killing him.

Something of a non sequitur.

Yeah, I always hated that. Also, I hated that Judas was so vilified. If he was supposed to do it, why was everyone so mad? I guess that story has some Calvinism built right into it...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2014, 08:43 PM
RE: Are christians sad Jesus died?
(03-04-2014 02:44 PM)War Horse Wrote:  The way I understood the trinity as a catholic kid was, that god left his throne to become a human (as still god) and then proved to be god by resurecting and then leaving again as the holy spirit on his way back to the throne.

Which meant to my little pee brain, that it was god all the time, just in different forms at different times.... which of course he can do, because he's god.

What utter nonsense, even then, us alter boys made fun of the concept, but had to think like this to keep the penguins and priests happy that we understood.... well, something. Hobo
That's called modalism. It was one of the major so called heresies surrounding the trinity. Funny how the most cognitive dissonance generating doctrines are wellsprings of heresies.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: