Are cosmic bodies... Conscious?
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11-11-2010, 02:24 PM
RE: Are cosmic bodies... Conscious?
Crash: What's that noise?
Buck: It's the wind. It's speaking to us.
Eddie: What's it saying?
Buck: I don't know. I don't speak wind.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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11-11-2010, 07:25 PM
RE: Are cosmic bodies... Conscious?
Well I'm disappoint. I wanted this either proved or ripped apart so I could sleep without thinking about it xD
Oh well, I like a long lasting argument too, just not too long. :3

If planets are conscious, it is not going to be sapient, and likely not sentient either. Still I see your reasons for mocking the idea in human terms. Though really it's more likely to have a consciousness similar to no carbon based life.

Still, I would say it's possible, maybe even plausible. I see no reason why not, not unless I can get help with this neuroscience stuff. I bet a guy who knows enough about brains could make my theory look scientifically impossible :3

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11-11-2010, 07:47 PM
 
RE: Are cosmic bodies... Conscious?
This doesn't sound like any trip I've been on. My profound questions usually impress me shortly thereafter, with profound answers. That I keep to myself. Tongue

Quote:The earth is just a conglomeration of atoms that are grouped together by gravity, but not by any organization. The fact that all these atoms are in the same place is because that is just how they were arranged through collisions when the solar system was young.

Couldn't the same thing be said for us? And isn't that last bit not really a true answer? I mean, all the atoms arranged in the same place, to create our planet, the layers to the core we theorize is just so. The surface area, with oceans our sciences can't even plum to the depths of because they're so deep and the pressure so great. The tectonic plates that shift and alter the surface area, earthquakes, tidal waves, etc.... all that are what amounts to atoms in the same place just because? Idea

Perhaps it's easy to dismiss the notion planets are conscious, because we imagine we're talking about a level of awareness similar to our own. But planets aren't at all like us, so of course they wouldn't be conscious in our way.
And I only get close enough to science in that I know how to spell the word, so this is a reach but I remember seeing something some years ago on Discovery Science, where if I remember correctly they said atoms and other elements within our perceived reality have what amounts to an intelligence to them. Something that can be gauged as something akin to self awareness and alteration to adapt.

I've not thought about that show in years, but this thread brought it to mind. Does anyone know what that may be?

(No, I've not got a head cold too. Tongue )
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11-11-2010, 08:04 PM
RE: Are cosmic bodies... Conscious?
I think I saw something about how atoms react to things as though they are intelligent. Though I think thats a harder thing to study. I think the best thing we can study right now is ball lightning imo. It's bigger, easier to read and easier to notify.... Unfortunately it's also hard to catch...
idk on second thought more intensive study of atoms would be a good idea, though I still think that the supposedly self-aware behavior of ball lightning is something to be considered here.

And sorry, I don't remember the name of that TV show either ^-^;

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12-11-2010, 12:26 AM
RE: Are cosmic bodies... Conscious?
Have you seen Avatar too many times?
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12-11-2010, 08:58 AM
 
RE: Are cosmic bodies... Conscious?
(11-11-2010 07:47 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  This doesn't sound like any trip I've been on. My profound questions usually impress me shortly thereafter, with profound answers. That I keep to myself. Tongue

Quote:The earth is just a conglomeration of atoms that are grouped together by gravity, but not by any organization. The fact that all these atoms are in the same place is because that is just how they were arranged through collisions when the solar system was young.

Couldn't the same thing be said for us? And isn't that last bit not really a true answer? I mean, all the atoms arranged in the same place, to create our planet, the layers to the core we theorize is just so. The surface area, with oceans our sciences can't even plum to the depths of because they're so deep and the pressure so great. The tectonic plates that shift and alter the surface area, earthquakes, tidal waves, etc.... all that are what amounts to atoms in the same place just because? Idea

Perhaps it's easy to dismiss the notion planets are conscious, because we imagine we're talking about a level of awareness similar to our own. But planets aren't at all like us, so of course they wouldn't be conscious in our way.
And I only get close enough to science in that I know how to spell the word, so this is a reach but I remember seeing something some years ago on Discovery Science, where if I remember correctly they said atoms and other elements within our perceived reality have what amounts to an intelligence to them. Something that can be gauged as something akin to self awareness and alteration to adapt.

I've not thought about that show in years, but this thread brought it to mind. Does anyone know what that may be?

(No, I've not got a head cold too. Tongue )

Perhaps you are referring to matter's tendency to react according to the laws of physics. For example, certain anions bond with certain cations simply because of inherent, supposedly fundamental laws of physics. Is this reaction to stimuli or intelligence?

We are limited by the English language when pondering the deepest questions of existence. The word conscious:

aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.

From dictionary.com...

If we use the word "conscious" to describe a planet, the description simply doesn't fit. To have sensations and thoughts, one must have some sort of sensory apparatus and a communication network to share the data gathered from this apparatus. Planets have no such thing.

Basically, it is the difference between moving and knowing you are moving. Matter moves. The earth moves.

We know we are moving.

The difference between us and just a conglomeration of atoms, or the earth, is that we are composed of living cells that take in energy, release waste, go through metabolic processes, divide, and are specialized an part of a broader organization. Every cell has its place, whether it be in the circulation system or the nervous system. It has a role to upkeep the larger organism, and there is a definite separation between inner and outer, a true sense of form.

Even if consciousness was possible without "living" tissue, the earth would still need specialization and sensory apparatus and communication apparatus etc.. etc...

The organization of the earth (denser core, liquid magma, thin crust, atmosphere etc...) is due simply to the laws of physics. Certain things float, certain things sink (Obviously there are different properties at work but it is the same concept). They do not sink because they want to sink, and they are not, unless they are sentient, aware that they are sinking. It is simply fundamental laws of physics that make it happen. And once the materials settle, there is no "communication" between them. None of them have a purpose. They just are there.

The only conceivable way I could imagine a non-biological entity in the universe being "conscious" would be a conglomeration of entangled atoms. Quantum entanglement is a strange property in which two or more entangled atoms are all in instant communication with each other. If the spin or properties of one atom changes, then no matter how far apart the other atom is (even the other side of the universe), then the properties of the other atom will change instantaneously. This is conceivably communication, and is the foundation of quantum computers.

However, it takes a concerted effort in the lab to achieve entanglement. To have it happen spontaneously in nature, and have all the entangled atoms in one place, and somehow achieve consciousness without sensory apparatus (which I don't see how this could form spontaneously) is incredibly unlikely.

And even if all this occur, then aren't we better off just calling the thing a new form of life?
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12-11-2010, 06:21 PM
RE: Are cosmic bodies... Conscious?
(12-11-2010 12:26 AM)No J. Wrote:  Have you seen Avatar too many times?

On Avatar the plants were formed into a conscious planetary network, not the planet's own energy Tongue

(12-11-2010 08:58 AM)TruthAddict Wrote:  
(11-11-2010 07:47 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  This doesn't sound like any trip I've been on. My profound questions usually impress me shortly thereafter, with profound answers. That I keep to myself. Tongue

Quote:The earth is just a conglomeration of atoms that are grouped together by gravity, but not by any organization. The fact that all these atoms are in the same place is because that is just how they were arranged through collisions when the solar system was young.

Couldn't the same thing be said for us? And isn't that last bit not really a true answer? I mean, all the atoms arranged in the same place, to create our planet, the layers to the core we theorize is just so. The surface area, with oceans our sciences can't even plum to the depths of because they're so deep and the pressure so great. The tectonic plates that shift and alter the surface area, earthquakes, tidal waves, etc.... all that are what amounts to atoms in the same place just because? Idea

Perhaps it's easy to dismiss the notion planets are conscious, because we imagine we're talking about a level of awareness similar to our own. But planets aren't at all like us, so of course they wouldn't be conscious in our way.
And I only get close enough to science in that I know how to spell the word, so this is a reach but I remember seeing something some years ago on Discovery Science, where if I remember correctly they said atoms and other elements within our perceived reality have what amounts to an intelligence to them. Something that can be gauged as something akin to self awareness and alteration to adapt.

I've not thought about that show in years, but this thread brought it to mind. Does anyone know what that may be?

(No, I've not got a head cold too. Tongue )

Perhaps you are referring to matter's tendency to react according to the laws of physics. For example, certain anions bond with certain cations simply because of inherent, supposedly fundamental laws of physics. Is this reaction to stimuli or intelligence?

We are limited by the English language when pondering the deepest questions of existence. The word conscious:

aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.

From dictionary.com...

If we use the word "conscious" to describe a planet, the description simply doesn't fit. To have sensations and thoughts, one must have some sort of sensory apparatus and a communication network to share the data gathered from this apparatus. Planets have no such thing.

Basically, it is the difference between moving and knowing you are moving. Matter moves. The earth moves.

We know we are moving.

The difference between us and just a conglomeration of atoms, or the earth, is that we are composed of living cells that take in energy, release waste, go through metabolic processes, divide, and are specialized an part of a broader organization. Every cell has its place, whether it be in the circulation system or the nervous system. It has a role to upkeep the larger organism, and there is a definite separation between inner and outer, a true sense of form.

Even if consciousness was possible without "living" tissue, the earth would still need specialization and sensory apparatus and communication apparatus etc.. etc...

The organization of the earth (denser core, liquid magma, thin crust, atmosphere etc...) is due simply to the laws of physics. Certain things float, certain things sink (Obviously there are different properties at work but it is the same concept). They do not sink because they want to sink, and they are not, unless they are sentient, aware that they are sinking. It is simply fundamental laws of physics that make it happen. And once the materials settle, there is no "communication" between them. None of them have a purpose. They just are there.

The only conceivable way I could imagine a non-biological entity in the universe being "conscious" would be a conglomeration of entangled atoms. Quantum entanglement is a strange property in which two or more entangled atoms are all in instant communication with each other. If the spin or properties of one atom changes, then no matter how far apart the other atom is (even the other side of the universe), then the properties of the other atom will change instantaneously. This is conceivably communication, and is the foundation of quantum computers.

However, it takes a concerted effort in the lab to achieve entanglement. To have it happen spontaneously in nature, and have all the entangled atoms in one place, and somehow achieve consciousness without sensory apparatus (which I don't see how this could form spontaneously) is incredibly unlikely.

And even if all this occur, then aren't we better off just calling the thing a new form of life?

I think a new form of life would be the only way to describe it.

Still, thanks for taking the time to explain why this theory is flawed instead of mocking. Makes for good times Big Grin

I think though still this theory is going to be one of those ones that gets put on a shelf until some time in the future. At least for me anyway xD

Stay tuned for the next head cold theory from me. Wink

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