Poll: Do you think scientologists should be considered atheists? ( please read my definition of atheism first! )
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i´m not sure
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Are scientologists actually Atheists?
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08-09-2010, 03:57 AM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2011 02:08 PM by Germanatheist007.)
Are scientologists actually Atheists?
Hi,

it´s often thrown around that buddhist, because they don´t believe in a god, are atheists.
But by that logic, shouldn´t scientologist be considered atheists too?

First of all i´d like to make a quick clarification what atheism actually is.

I think DlandonCondel made a good distinction between two common types of atheists.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DLandonCole#...g2Uz_0WzJs

explicit atheists: People who find that there is not enough sufficient evidence to back up the claim that there is a god.

and

implicit atheists: People who have simply never heard of a god, like babies or people who live seperated from civilastion on a lonely island for example.

But if this are the only two opptions then buddhists as well as scientologists could NOT be considered atheists, because they don´t necessarily think that there is not enough evidence and it´s very likely that they HAVE heard of a the idea of a personal god but simply reject it because it is not their religious duty to believe in them.

so i´d suggest we either add a third possibility, the rejection of theistic claims because you follow a religion that neither supports mono- nor polytheism, or we just sum up all of atheism under the rejection of theism.

So back to scientology.

But isn´t atheism the rejection of religion and the supernatural, you ask?

no

like i made very clear in my earlier statements is atheism the rejection of theism, and theism is the belief in god(s). So atheism, by that logic, is nothing more and nothing less than the disbelief in a god or gods. Atheism says, by the same logic, nothing about the existence of aliens, souls, spritiuality and supernatural claims, that´s what scepticism is for and you´ll see that even some explicit atheists belief in the supernatural or even aliens (i personally don´t). It doesn´t even say anything about the afterlife (beside the fact that there will be no god invoked)...

So my question would be, do you think that scientologists should be considered atheists? and if no, why? If yes do you think we should make a clear distinction between religous atheists like buddhists and scientologists and the usual explicit and implicit atheists?

best wishes from germany

EMO, because homo is not gay enoughTongue
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08-09-2010, 07:31 AM
RE: Are scientologists actually Atheists?
I think the definition of implicit atheist is too specific. It states one's motives for rejecting god, but only one motive. It would be better if it was "People who heard the claim that there is a god, but rejected it" That way it's more of a dichotomy, and doesn't have the middle ground that would include Scientologists and Buddhists.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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08-09-2010, 07:42 AM
RE: Are scientologists actually Atheists?
Someone once said to me "You're not an atheist because you believe in respecting the dead"

But anyway thats semi-irrelevant.

I don't think scientology is a theism, though they certainly act like one. I think it is as simple as "No god = atheist"

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08-09-2010, 08:18 AM
RE: Are scientologists actually Atheists?
You got "implicit" and "explicit" backwards, but other than that, yes, your definition of atheism is correct. It is simply the lack of belief in a deity. As Scientologists do not believe in a god, they are atheists.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-09-2010, 08:59 AM
RE: Are scientologists actually Atheists?
(08-09-2010 08:18 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You got "implicit" and "explicit" backwards

ups yeah thanks, i changed it.

EMO, because homo is not gay enoughTongue
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08-09-2010, 09:12 AM
 
RE: Are scientologists actually Atheists?
to decide if Scientology is in fact an atheist affair I think one needs to go back to its founder and the way that Scientology was founded. Hubbard had "invented" and alternative system of treating people with modderate amounts of mental problems. However, he fell foul of the law United States because, as a trained person, he was not allowed to offer treatments to the public. It was at that point that he decided that religion was the way to go.

As a popular science-fiction writer, it hardly took any time at all to devise a short myth which allowed him to register Scientology as a religion. Once done, he was able to move back to its previous treatments using personality test out his various devised methods to treat people whom he considered needed help -- or who might have enough money to make it worthwhile him to run such treatments. It is pretty clear from what we see on television and reading magazines, that the majority of people who attend Scientology do so for auditing and do not take part in any form of worship whilst the few at the top probably only worship money.

I would therefore be quite happy to suggest that Scientology is in fact atheism are dressed up to make money.
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08-09-2010, 09:20 AM
RE: Are scientologists actually Atheists?
i would go with your explanation

i mean if l ron hubbard would´ve been a christian or anything he wouldn´t have invented such crap.
And we can eliminate from the very beginning that he really believed that stuff

EMO, because homo is not gay enoughTongue
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08-09-2010, 01:38 PM
RE: Are scientologists actually Atheists?
This may be total heresy on this site but I have a bit of respect for Scientology, it seems to take all the people who would normally be fundie christians and makes them believe the proven laws of reality are the absolute truth. Which is all good stuff Big Grin
I read through their official site and it seems more like a self help group than anything else... call it a religion?.... meh sure why not, I have no objections to that.

As for a deity, they don't have a deity per say but the center of their belief is something they call the "eighth dynamic" which is basically like immortality after death, which is silly really but I do like some of the other 7 dynamics Smile

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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08-09-2010, 02:00 PM
 
RE: Are scientologists actually Atheists?
well, you might have some respect of Scientology which you really ought to consider the price people pay to be part of it. We're talking about thousands and thousands of dollars or pounds to get anywhere at all and, from what I've heard, maybe a full quarter of 1,000,000 to get to the elevated status of being a clear. There are no concessions so no money no help. It isn't that reason that in the United Kingdom Scientology is not a charity -- even though it religion it has to make its service is open to all regardless of wealth.

And while were at it, don't forget that dianetics which is Scientology is answer to psychiatry with a load of mumbo-jumbo and is likely to make people worse rather than better so that being a delusional question might just be a better bet than having your mind wrecked by pseudoscience
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08-09-2010, 02:05 PM
RE: Are scientologists actually Atheists?
(08-09-2010 02:00 PM)wheels5894 Wrote:  well, you might have some respect of Scientology which you really ought to consider the price people pay to be part of it. We're talking about thousands and thousands of dollars or pounds to get anywhere at all and, from what I've heard, maybe a full quarter of 1,000,000 to get to the elevated status of being a clear. There are no concessions so no money no help. It isn't that reason that in the United Kingdom Scientology is not a charity -- even though it religion it has to make its service is open to all regardless of wealth.

And while were at it, don't forget that dianetics which is Scientology is answer to psychiatry with a load of mumbo-jumbo and is likely to make people worse rather than better so that being a delusional question might just be a better bet than having your mind wrecked by pseudoscience

I see your point, but I'd rather have someone who at least accepts scientific fact -to a degree in this case- and has respect regardless of ethnicity or personal beliefs than a fundamentalist -insert religion here- any day.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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