Are some of my concerns legitimate???
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11-01-2016, 01:50 PM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
(11-01-2016 01:48 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Do you guys wanna take your squabble to the Boxing Ring?

Dodgy

Like every third thread around here is derailed. And this is the one you ask about?

Besides, I've already made my point.

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11-01-2016, 02:40 PM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
(11-01-2016 01:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  In what universe does an eleven point gap out of a hundred constitute some definitive qualitative difference? For that matter, if we filter out actual Muslims, the gap is 9 points on a margin of error of 8 and 3. I'm not saying that means there isn't still a small difference, but it certain re-affirms that the actual data matter far less to you than finding an excuse to pretend to righteousness.
(incidentally, the PEW figures also show that there are more black Muslims than white, as a proportion, so you're wrong about that too)

Your number are all fuzzy. Only one percent of African Americans are muslims, while 83% identify as christians (which is higher than the national average, and higher than among white americans.).

And the numbers in the pew survey to represent attitudes towards muslims and other groups use a scale of 1-100, where 50 is neutral. For comparison, Atheists are on average given a rating of 41, indicating a generally negative attitude towards them. Where as black attitudes towards Muslims is predominantly neutral (49).

On an interesting note, white attitudes towards Muslims are more negative (38) than their attitude towards Atheists (43).The inverse is true for African Americans, whose attitude towards atheists is more negative (33) than white attitudes towards atheists.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-01-2016, 08:15 AM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
(11-01-2016 10:57 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(11-01-2016 09:40 AM)Eva Wrote:  Yes your concerns are legitimate. I too am in the UK and have been all my life and I see Islam spreading before my eyes. Not moderate, westernised, assimilated Islam but conservative/fundamental islam. More and more women are covered from head to foot in black. More mosques popping up all over and I know of a couple of areas where the call to prayer is indeed heard, albeit from a van driving around and not from the mosques. There are now many Pakistani, Afghan and Arab immigrants who no longer both to learn English as it is not needed as they never emerge from there own communities so assimilation to there new homes is no concern of theirs. More and more young children are starting school unable to learn due to knowing no English so the cost of employing extra staff to tackle this is getting expensive.

I have three immediate thoughts on seeing statements like that. I mean, I doubt things here are directly comparable, so it makes me wonder:

Is that borne out by statistics, or is it just an impression?

To what extent does that differ from previous generations of immigrants?

Do you think descendents of those groups will maintain that 'difference', to the extent that it exists?

(11-01-2016 09:40 AM)Eva Wrote:  I am not a cultural relativist and I am with Hirsi Ali on this one when she said that “all people are equal but all cultures are not.” Islam as a culture is stuck in the dark ages and it has knocked on our door and we have welcomed it in. More fool us!

Treating it as a monolith is not, I think, a very helpful attitude in many cases.

After all, there are times when it's fair to talk about "Christianity" as a whole, to be sure, but also plenty of times where lumping together the United Church of Canada and the Canadian chapter of Jehovah's Witnesses would be asinine.

I said in my first papragraph the increase I am seeing is not in moderate, westernised, assimilated Islam but conservative/fundamental islam. I see an increase of fully veiled women, not just headscarfs but burqas, completely veiled from head to foot, even gloves. In the city centre I am seeing more and more proselytizing stalls set up by the fundamentalists, not just one but often rows of them on a Saturday. Having lived in this city all my life I have never seen religious promotion on this scale. You always see the few nutcases with a loud speaker and an ‘end is nigh’ placard and a few Jehovah’s Witnesses here and there but nothing on this scale.

Previous immigrants tended to be the West Indies so christian. AlsoIndia being Sikh and Hindu neither of those religions are proselytising and in my experience they integrated pretty quickly into a western lifestyle and their parents for the most part knew the value of education as a way to get on in the world. (and the stats below show the numbers are still pretty low).

Do I think the muslim immigrants will maintain their ‘difference’? Yes. Immigration is on a much larger scale than it was when I was growing up in the 70’s and 80’s. They now have their own TV stations, their communities are far less integrated into the rest of the population so many only know the minimum of English some none at all. There's no real motivation to assimilate to the host country any longer.

In my opinion, what we are witnessing now in Paris, Cologne, Istanbul, Helsinki and Zurich are just the beginnings. I lived with the sectarian violence of the IRA with the Birmingham bombers etc. My mom worked in a department store so they were often on alert for bomb threats but I think we are about to enter something on a much larger scale now. I hope I’m wrong though.

And before anyone jumps on me I am not thinking that all muslim immigrants are hard line fundamentalists but the fraction that is is noticeably on the rise and thinking it'll all come out good in the wash just seems naive to me.

Here are some figures to back up my observations.

Taken from the Census report of 2011:

Birmingham Population etc..

“Birmingham ranked 9th for the proportion of respondents stating they were Muslim, behind 4 London authorities, Bradford, Luton, Slough and Leicester. However, the number of Muslims living in Birmingham was far greater than any other Local Authority District. At 234,411, Muslims in Birmingham almost doubled the number found in Bradford (129,041), ranked 2nd for number of Muslims.”

The muslim population in 2011 was sitting at 21.85% up from 14.33% in 2001. Thankfully the ‘no religion’ category was also up. Smile

The following table shows the religion of respondents in the 2001 and 2011 censuses in Birmingham.


Number 2001% Number 2011%
Christian 577,783 59.13% 494,358 46.07%
Buddhist 2,977 0.30% 4,780 0.45%
Hindu 19,358 1.98% 22,362 2.08%
Jewish 2,343 0.24% 2,205 0.21%
Muslim 140,033 14.33% 234,411 21.85%
Sikh 28,592 2.93% 32,376 3.02%

Other religion 2,501 0.26% 5,646 0.53%
No religion 121,541 12.44% 206,821 19.27%
Rel not stated 81,959 8.39% 70,086 6.53%

Total 977,087 100.00% 1,073,045 100.00%


(Sorry that table hasn't copied too well but it's the best I could do but it's from wiki if you want to check)

Demography of Birmingham

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

"Remember kids, if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing. Have a great day!" - Ricky Gervais
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14-01-2016, 07:44 AM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
(09-01-2016 06:58 AM)bemore Wrote:  This post may be a long one, so tl: dr I am going to be talking about the rise of Islam here in my country, the UK. I would like to firstly point out that I am not just bashing Islam or Muslims. It just so happens that Islam's influence appears to be rising here more than any other and if it was any other religion, I would have the same concerns.

Over the years of my time here on this forum I have of course read many stories of persecution that happens to atheists in the US, as this forum is mostly made up of Americans. How it is tough to get into the US political system if your not a Christian, through to how people's family lives are ripped apart due to "coming out" as an atheist.

Here in the UK we are mainly an atheist society. It is one of the few remaining things that make me proud to live here, as it is indicative to how without religion, our society hasn't been ripped apart or collapsed and how many people here are still empathic, kind and good citizens who largely look out for one another. We still have a strong moral set for other human beings. I can only imagine what it must be like to be persecuted over your religious beliefs (or lack of) as here (in the UK) if you announce anywhere (groups of people, at a job interview etc) that your an atheist, many people will just say "oh", it would not be an issue at all and it would very rarely influence how people interact with you. I am sure that this is something that many of you would strive to happen in your own country, it is something you can only currently dream of.

I use this example of how recently KFC have decided to trial having halal compliant restaurants and outlets. KFC have stressed that nothing changes in the slaughtering process apart from the prayer/tasmiya/shahada being uttered upon slaughter.

Now to me and I imagine many other non-religious people looking at this practise, it is pretty pointless and stupid to say a prayer when killing an animal. There just words at the end of the day and somebody could say literally anything as it would make no difference or have any impact on it affecting the meat that you buy, cook and eventually eat.

However to do this a certain structure needs to be put into place, behind the scenes. Whilst I cant say for certain, I can only imagine that only muslims would be employed to do this job and task. I doubt that they would allow an atheist or anybody else with an alternative religious belief to do this, as it is kind of hypocritical.

I fully understand that it is only a trial that KFC are doing. If it is successful, does not see a drop in customers or profits, then potentially they could roll this out to other stores and outlets, which in turn would increase the demand for halal slaughtered chicken. Also if it is successful and there is no real negative consequences I imagine other outlets may follow suit like others as Subway has served halal since 2007 and Pizza Express has halal chicken. The four main and largest supermarket chains here (Asda, Sainsburys, Morrisons and Tesco) all sell Halal meat and because it is not a dietary requirement, they do not have to label it informing consumers of how it is slaughtered.

So here we have seen major changes, caused by religious beliefs, for what today only equates to 5% of the UK population (Census 2011 giving the UK Muslim population in 2011 as ~2,706,066, ~4.5% of the total population. The vast majority of Muslims in the United Kingdom live in England: 2,660,116 (5.02% of the population).

So my concerns, which I understand may at this moment in time be unjust and potentially fear mongering, look to the future. With a growing demographic of muslims in this country I wonder what else could be done to appease the beliefs of these people. If I have children next year, could my grandchildren or their children potentially begin to see persecution??? Could they potentially be asked to cover up in certain areas or places like restaurants??? Could they one day live in an area and listen to the idiotic sound of adhan/call to prayer, 5 times a day from the growing number of mosques that are popping up everywhere??

Christianity has had to evolve to attempt to survive here, now though,it would appear (to me at least) that step by step, little by little we are devolving... to Islam.

Articles speculating on the number of muslims in the uk in the future...

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/56...on_by_2051

Counter argument of above article....

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fact...2050/13690

Britain to become first non-Muslim country to launch sharia bond

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsb...-bond.html

Exam timetables to accommodate ramadan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35244444

Muhammed most popular boys name UK 2014

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a25011625/to...names-2014

Being an Aussie I cannot understand religious persecution.

The other day I had to have tests at he hospital. I made small talk with the Indian guy doing the procedure. At one point he asked if I believe in god above. I answered "I am an atheist. I believe in people and science." He responded. Oh okay.

We then continued our conversation.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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14-01-2016, 07:52 AM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
(14-01-2016 07:44 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Being an Aussie I cannot understand religious persecution.

The other day I had to have tests at he hospital. I made small talk with the Indian guy doing the procedure. At one point he asked if I believe in god above. I answered "I am an atheist. I believe in people and science." He responded. Oh okay.

We then continued our conversation.

Pretty much the way things are in SA too, although the religious crackpot leaders do have a bit of a strangle-hold, and pretty much everyone holds to some form of religion or another. But apart from the idiot leaders and pastors, most of the people tend to regard religion as something private.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-01-2016, 11:48 AM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
(11-01-2016 01:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  In what universe does an eleven point gap out of a hundred constitute some definitive qualitative difference? For that matter, if we filter out actual Muslims, the gap is 9 points on a margin of error of 8 and 3. I'm not saying that means there isn't still a small difference, but it certain re-affirms that the actual data matter far less to you than finding an excuse to pretend to righteousness.
(incidentally, the PEW figures also show that there are more black Muslims than white, as a proportion, so you're wrong about that too)

You're really reaching on this straw man, friendo.

Please tell me how you are filtering out actual (black) Muslims here, when muslims represent less than 1% of the black population as a whole?

Are you erroneously confusing the percentage of muslims who are black (23%), with the percentage of blacks who are muslims (1%)?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-01-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
(19-01-2016 11:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-01-2016 01:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  In what universe does an eleven point gap out of a hundred constitute some definitive qualitative difference? For that matter, if we filter out actual Muslims, the gap is 9 points on a margin of error of 8 and 3. I'm not saying that means there isn't still a small difference, but it certain re-affirms that the actual data matter far less to you than finding an excuse to pretend to righteousness.
(incidentally, the PEW figures also show that there are more black Muslims than white, as a proportion, so you're wrong about that too)

You're really reaching on this straw man, friendo.

Please tell me how you are filtering out actual (black) Muslims here, when muslims represent less than 1% of the black population as a whole?

Are you erroneously confusing the percentage of muslims who are black (23%), with the percentage of blacks who are muslims (1%)?

I'm not doing the filtering.

PEW is doing it.

In the section marked, "Ratings of Religious Groups, Excluding Members of Group Being Rated".

Did you only look at the press release, without following up on the actual published data?
(incidentally, that's also where the margins of error are listed)

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19-01-2016, 12:06 PM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
(19-01-2016 11:53 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 11:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Please tell me how you are filtering out actual (black) Muslims here, when muslims represent less than 1% of the black population as a whole?

Are you erroneously confusing the percentage of muslims who are black (23%), with the percentage of blacks who are muslims (1%)?

I'm not doing the filtering.

PEW is doing it.

In the section marked, "Ratings of Religious Groups, Excluding Members of Group Being Rated".

Did you only look at the press release, without following up on the actual published data?
(incidentally, that's also where the margins of error are listed)

And in the survey excluding members of the group being rate black protestant attitudes towards Muslims rate as 44, which is the same as for unaffiliated atheists/agnostic attitudes towards muslims. While white evangelical attitudes towards muslims rate as a 30.

No matter how you cut, there stills that considerable disparity.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-01-2016, 12:09 PM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
(19-01-2016 11:53 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 11:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Please tell me how you are filtering out actual (black) Muslims here, when muslims represent less than 1% of the black population as a whole?

Are you erroneously confusing the percentage of muslims who are black (23%), with the percentage of blacks who are muslims (1%)?

I'm not doing the filtering.

PEW is doing it.

In the section marked, "Ratings of Religious Groups, Excluding Members of Group Being Rated".

Did you only look at the press release, without following up on the actual published data?
(incidentally, that's also where the margins of error are listed)

Wouldn't make sense otherwise. Kinda like training a lazy instance-based classifier on its test set.

#sigh
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20-01-2016, 08:32 AM
RE: Are some of my concerns legitimate???
Could some of this "appeasing Islam" sentiment be coming as an overreaction to when people earlier overreacted with Islamaphobia? I can't help but think this whole situation would be better if people stopped getting emotional about the issue and just treated it like they would any other religion.

I think the best thing any society can do is hammer out some good, common sense secular laws designed to help people and keep society together, and to not make special exceptions for different religions. If the rule serves a good purpose for society why should people get exclusions from it. If they stick to this, any offended parties will be either forced to adapt or move.

As for Halal KFCs, I'm personally fine with it. It's a private company making the decision to include new products to increase their market share. There's a big difference between special chicken that's had a magic spell cast on it being available for all who want it and me being forced to pray on a rug five times a day against my will. I don't see this as any kind of slippery slope.
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