Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-05-2015, 06:20 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(17-05-2015 02:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 02:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm just curious about your response to this:

"But you think that when they sacrificed those you see as "the most innocent" among them, that they obviously saw that they were the "the most innocent"? I mean there innocence is quite obvious to you, so it should have been for them as well?"

I don't see much of a point in starting a new thread, since it would likely just be me and you going back forth on this. But I'm curious about the perception of yours of "the most innocent". This aspect seems obvious to you, and I'm curious as to why you believe it was obvious to those who unlike yourself, murdered them?

Why do you think it would have been obvious to them?

Oh sneaky Tommy, I see you want to go the absolute morality route. Good luck with that. That's an equally boring and inconsequential topic by the way.

I wasn't particularly going the absolute morality route, or even making it a question of morality. I was trying to argue that you likely were reading the "most innocent" part into the text. Because you would categorize some of the victims as "the most innocent", and you seem to assume this perception would have been recognized by those committing the sacrifice, even though none of their mythologies indicate the innocence of the victim was even acknowledged.

So are you now agreeing, that perhaps they didn't recognize their victims as the "most innocent", perhaps not even just plain "innocent"?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-05-2015, 06:42 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 06:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 02:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Oh sneaky Tommy, I see you want to go the absolute morality route. Good luck with that. That's an equally boring and inconsequential topic by the way.

I wasn't particularly going the absolute morality route, or even making it a question of morality. I was trying to argue that you likely were reading the "most innocent" part into the text. Because you would categorize some of the victims as "the most innocent", and you seem to assume this perception would have been recognized by those committing the sacrifice, even though none of their mythologies indicate the innocence of the victim was even acknowledged.

So are you now agreeing, that perhaps they didn't recognize their victims as the "most innocent", perhaps not even just plain "innocent"?

Don't be a prat man. Innocent would have to refer to innocent within Hebrew culture, since it was Hebrew kids getting sacrificed. IOW not having sinned against that prick Jehovah.

Are *you* saying that in Christianity kids are not recognized as innocent of sin? Fuck, your deity's even more fucked up than I thought. And here you are still worshiping this fucker?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-05-2015, 10:12 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 06:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So are you now agreeing, that perhaps they didn't recognize their victims as the "most innocent", perhaps not even just plain "innocent"?

No.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-05-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 10:12 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 06:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So are you now agreeing, that perhaps they didn't recognize their victims as the "most innocent", perhaps not even just plain "innocent"?

No.

So do you believe they did recognize their victims as the "most innocent", or at least "innocent"?

If so why do you believe they did, since their writing don't particually indicate that they did?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-05-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
Damn those guilty babies. They're just so evil. Beat_stick

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-05-2015, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 10:50 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 10:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Damn those guilty babies. They're just so evil. Beat_stick

Or they could be parasites, hogging a considerable amount of scare resources. Selected not because they are seen as innocent, but because they are weak, and unable to put up a fight.

Peter Stinger believes that abortion rights should be extended up to a month after giving birth, that even pigs, chickens, and fish have a more developed sense of consciousness and rationality at this stage. Perhaps for some the concept of innocence doesn't apply to children 3-4 weeks of age, anymore so than it applies to an ant, or the fly I swatted the other night, or the weeds I plucked out from my garden.

None of the pagan human sacrifice myth, ever acknowledge the victim as innocent, yet some here seem to believe that murderers did recognize them as such, but no one has particularly elaborated on why they think they did.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-05-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 10:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Damn those guilty babies. They're just so evil. Beat_stick

Or they could be parasites, hogging a considerable amount of scare resources. Selected not because they are seen as innocent, but because they are weak, and unable to put up a fight.

Peter Stinger believes that abortion rights should be extended up to a month after giving birth, that even pigs, chickens, and fish have a more developed sense of consciousness and rationality at this stage. Perhaps for some the concept of innocence doesn't apply to children 3-4 weeks of age, anymore so than it applies to an ant, or the fly I swatted the other night, or the weeds I plucked out from my garden.

None of the pagan human sacrifice myth, ever acknowledge the victim as innocent, yet some here seem to believe that murderers did recognize them as such, but no one has particularly elaborated on why they think they did.

Nobody really gives a shit. It's an inconsequential distinction. Kind of like Qtip arguing that the Golden Rule is uniquely Judeo-Chrsitian because they were the first to formulate its positive version using the sweet sweet love word. It's a meaningless distinction. Reeks of grasping at straws desperation even.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
18-05-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 10:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Damn those guilty babies. They're just so evil. Beat_stick

Or they could be parasites, hogging a considerable amount of scare resources. Selected not because they are seen as innocent, but because they are weak, and unable to put up a fight.

Peter Stinger believes that abortion rights should be extended up to a month after giving birth, that even pigs, chickens, and fish have a more developed sense of consciousness and rationality at this stage. Perhaps for some the concept of innocence doesn't apply to children 3-4 weeks of age, anymore so than it applies to an ant, or the fly I swatted the other night, or the weeds I plucked out from my garden.

None of the pagan human sacrifice myth, ever acknowledge the victim as innocent, yet some here seem to believe that murderers did recognize them as such, but no one has particularly elaborated on why they think they did.

You seem to be equating "scapegoating" with human sacrifice in general. Nobody here is claiming that victims of human sacrifice are always innocent. Scapegoating, however, is a particular kind of sacrifice (not necessarily involving humans -- the victim could be a literal goat, for example) in which the sins or guilt of the people are offloaded onto the sacrifical victim. It is an essential part of the concept that the victim be innocent of at least those crimes for which he/she/it is being punished, and ideally innocent of any crimes. That's what "scapegoating" means. None of your examples (Nazis, lynchings, Aztecs, etc.) are scapegoating. They are simply human sacrifice (done for other reasons) or murder.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Grasshopper's post
18-05-2015, 12:38 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 12:42 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 11:48 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It is an essential part of the concept that the victim be innocent of at least those crimes for which he/she/it is being punished, and ideally innocent of any crimes.


Essential part in what way? That the parties selecting the victim, are deliberately looking for their victims to be innocent? Rather than just weak, and vulnerable?

Innocence when it comes to scapegoating is only essential for outsiders to categorize the actions of certain people as scapegoating. Scapegoating is like a delusion, the one doing the scapegoating doesn't see their victim as innocent, they also don't particularly see what they are doing as scapegoating either. The victimizer doesn't assign himself any culpability, nor does he see the violence that falls on the victim as unwarranted.

Quote:That's what "scapegoating" means. None of your examples (Nazis, lynchings, Aztecs, etc.) are scapegoating. They are simply human sacrifice (done for other reasons) or murder.

I beg to differ. Human sacrifices are just a ritualized forms of scapegoat, unlike in the case of Nazi's and Lynching. The Jews were the Nazi's scapegoats, just like blacks where white peoples scapegoats for a time. The underlying human mechanism are same, though the dressing may be different, and some forms may be more ritualized, than other forms.

"The scapegoat theory of inter-group conflict provides an explanation for the correlation between times of relative economic despair and increases in prejudice and violence toward outgroups.[5] For example, studies of anti-black violence in the southern US between 1882 and 1930 show a correlation between poor economic conditions and outbreaks of violence (e.g., lynchings) against blacks. The correlation between the price of cotton (the principal product of the area at that time) and the number of lynchings of black men by whites ranged from -0.63 to -0.72, suggesting that a poor economy induced white people to take out their frustrations by attacking an outgroup.[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoating
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-05-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 11:07 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Nobody really gives a shit.

Except for me of course.

Quote:It's an inconsequential distinction.

Maybe, maybe not. For those interested in the human dimensions of scapegoating those distinction wouldn't be inconsequential at all. For those interested in the development and reasons for practical purpose of human sacrifices, it wouldn't be an inconsequential distinction either. And for those wondering about the distinction regarding Gospel Myth's human sacrifice, as opposed to pagan mythologies, it wouldn't be inconsequential either.

You can continue to appeal to the "inconsequential", as a means to avoid answering questions, questions which I'm interested in hearing you respond to. But you're under no obligation to appease my curiosities, anymore so than I am yours.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: