Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
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18-05-2015, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 01:28 PM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 12:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 11:48 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It is an essential part of the concept that the victim be innocent of at least those crimes for which he/she/it is being punished, and ideally innocent of any crimes.


Essential part in what way? That the parties selecting the victim, are deliberately looking for their victims to be innocent? Rather than just weak, and vulnerable?

Innocence when it comes to scapegoating is only essential for outsiders to categorize the actions of certain people as scapegoating. Scapegoating is like a delusion, the one doing the scapegoating doesn't see their victim as innocent, they also don't particularly see what they are doing as scapegoating either. The victimizer doesn't assign himself any culpability, nor does he see the violence that falls on the victim as unwarranted.

Quote:That's what "scapegoating" means. None of your examples (Nazis, lynchings, Aztecs, etc.) are scapegoating. They are simply human sacrifice (done for other reasons) or murder.

I beg to differ. Human sacrifices are just a ritualized forms of scapegoat, unlike in the case of Nazi's and Lynching. The Jews were the Nazi's scapegoats, just like blacks where white peoples scapegoats for a time. The underlying human mechanism are same, though the dressing may be different, and some forms may be more ritualized, than other forms.

"The scapegoat theory of inter-group conflict provides an explanation for the correlation between times of relative economic despair and increases in prejudice and violence toward outgroups.[5] For example, studies of anti-black violence in the southern US between 1882 and 1930 show a correlation between poor economic conditions and outbreaks of violence (e.g., lynchings) against blacks. The correlation between the price of cotton (the principal product of the area at that time) and the number of lynchings of black men by whites ranged from -0.63 to -0.72, suggesting that a poor economy induced white people to take out their frustrations by attacking an outgroup.[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoating

You are using the term "scapegoating" in a much broader sense than any religion does. In particular, Christianity claims that Christ died for our sins -- that his death redeemed everyone from original sin. He took all of our guilt upon himself and suffered the consequences so that we wouldn't have to. Now, I don't buy any of that -- I think it's utter bullshit -- but that's what Christianity claims. Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is. None of your examples are anything like that. I suppose there is some sort of tenuous connection -- taking out your frustrations on someone else -- but that's not really what the word originally meant. And when we make the claim that a scapegoat is necessarily an innocent victim, we are referring to the classic scapegoat in its original meaning -- not just someone who happens to be available when you need to vent. No innocence is required for that, but then I don't agree that that is scapegoating.
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18-05-2015, 01:29 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  None of your examples are anything like that. I suppose there is some sort of tenuous connection -- taking out your frustrations on someone else -- but that's not really what the word originally meant.

The connection between the original concept of scapegoat, and scapegoat in it’s extended form, is not superficial. The only difference is one is a ritualized form of it, and modern forms of scapegoating are not ritualized.

Quote:And when we make the claim that a scapegoat is necessarily an innocent victim, we are referring to the classic scapegoat in its original meaning -- not just someone who happens to be available when you need to vent.

Where do you derive the notion that the victim needed to be innocent? Rather than merely disposable, or vulnerable, or weak? You’re reading the innocence aspect back into the text. If “innocence” was a necessary component, than the mythologies of human sacrifices would likely of highlighted the innocence of their victims.

You still haven’t answered, as to why you assumed that the selection process required the victim to be innocent? On what basis do you make this assumption?

Quote:In particular, Christianity claims that Christ died for our sins -- that his death redeemed everyone from original sin. He took all of our guilt upon himself and suffered the consequences so that we wouldn't have to. Now, I don't buy any of that -- I think it's utter bullshit -- but that's what Christianity claims. Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is.

In one way the Jesus myth resembles classic scapegoat mythologies, but it’s where it doesn’t that makes it unique. In fact it may even be your familiarity with the christian myth, that leads you to believe that “innocence” was a required component of earlier sacrifice myths. You’re inclined to see them all as one and same, but starting from the lens of the gospels first, and that’s likely where you mistake arose.

Christian Myth, is an anti-scapegoating myth. It’s narrative of the victim, the sympathizers of the victim, declaring the innocence of the victim, and the culpability of those who nailed him there. The very thing in which one is asking forgiveness for, is for the murder itself, that sin that cumulated in him dying on the cross.

It’s a mythology akin to if black victims, the black families, and communities they belonged to, wrote a narrative declaring the innocence of the victim the mobs murdered, attempting to reveal the guilt and culpability of the mob itself. And offering forgiveness and reconciliation it’s wake.

Traditional/pagan human sacrifice mythology is akin, to if it where the whites lynchers writing the story.
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18-05-2015, 01:34 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 09:44 PM by Chas.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 01:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  None of your examples are anything like that. I suppose there is some sort of tenuous connection -- taking out your frustrations on someone else -- but that's not really what the word originally meant.

The connection between the original concept of scapegoat, and scapegoat in it’s extended form, is not superficial. The only difference is one is a ritualized form of it, and modern forms of scapegoating are not ritualized.

Quote:And when we make the claim that a scapegoat is necessarily an innocent victim, we are referring to the classic scapegoat in its original meaning -- not just someone who happens to be available when you need to vent.

Where do you derive the notion that the victim needed to be innocent? Rather than merely disposable, or vulnerable, or weak? You’re reading the innocence aspect back into the text. If “innocence” was a necessary component, than the mythologies of human sacrifices would likely of highlighted the innocence of their victims.

You still haven’t answered, as to why you assumed that the selection process required the victim to be innocent? On what basis do you make this assumption?

Quote:In particular, Christianity claims that Christ died for our sins -- that his death redeemed everyone from original sin. He took all of our guilt upon himself and suffered the consequences so that we wouldn't have to. Now, I don't buy any of that -- I think it's utter bullshit -- but that's what Christianity claims. Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is.

In one way the Jesus myth resembles classic scapegoat mythologies, but it’s where it doesn’t that makes it unique. In fact it may even be your familiarity with the christian myth, that leads you to believe that “innocence” was a required component of earlier sacrifice myths. You’re inclined to see them all as one and same, but starting from the lens of the gospels first, and that’s likely where you mistake arose.

Christian Myth, is an anti-scapegoating myth. It’s narrative of the victim, the sympathizers of the victim, declaring the innocence of the victim, and the culpability of those who nailed him there. The very thing in which one is asking forgiveness for, is for the murder itself, that sin that cumulated in him dying on the cross.

It’s a mythology akin to if black victims, the black families, and communities they belonged to, wrote a narrative declaring the innocence of the victim the mobs murdered, attempting to reveal the guilt and culpability of the mob itself. And offering forgiveness and reconciliation it’s wake.

Traditional/pagan human sacrifice mythology is akin, to if it where the whites lynchers writing the story.

Christian myth is precisely scapegoating. It is derivative of OT scapegoating which is itself derivative of older religions. Your distinctions are illusory.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-05-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 01:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  And when we make the claim that a scapegoat is necessarily an innocent victim, we are referring to the classic scapegoat in its original meaning -- not just someone who happens to be available when you need to vent.

Where do you derive the notion that the victim needed to be innocent? Rather than merely disposable, or vulnerable, or weak? You’re reading the innocence aspect back into the text. If “innocence” was a necessary component, than the mythologies of human sacrifices would likely of highlighted the innocence of their victims.

In general, "the mythologies of human sacrifices" that you keep referring to are not scapegoating. Scapegoating is one very specific form of sacrifice, the purpose of which is to offload guilt onto someone or something that is innocent of that guilt. The innocence of the victim is built into the definition of the word/concept.

What you're doing is akin to me claiming that Moby-Dick isn't a book because it doesn't have any mathematics in it. Mathematics books are required to contain mathematics. Books in general are not. Scapegoating, by definition, requires an innocent victim. Human sacrifice in general does not.
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18-05-2015, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 02:02 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 01:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Christian Myth, is an anti-scapegoating myth. It’s narrative of the victim, the sympathizers of the victim, declaring the innocence of the victim, and the culpability of those who nailed him there. The very thing in which one is asking forgiveness for, is for the murder itself, that sin that cumulated in him dying on the cross.

Complete bullshit. First of all Christans thank their god that HE SENT his son to die for their sins. The sacrifice was arranged by their god. It's really not ANY kind of scapegoating. The thing that forgiveness is being WON for, is Original Sin, (not the putting to death of the savior). You really should stop trying to dig yourself deeper and deeper into your pathetic troll-hole here, and instead go take a class. The scapegoat was alway innocent, no matter what you claim. Still wating for 5 examples of GUILTY scapegoats from Girard's books).

(18-05-2015 01:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It’s a mythology akin to if black victims, the black families, and communities they belonged to, wrote a narrative declaring the innocence of the victim the mobs murdered, attempting to reveal the guilt and culpability of the mob itself. And offering forgiveness and reconciliation it’s wake.

It is nothing of the sort. What you're saying is that the "good news" was that "Oh great, a mob killed my Jebus ... and yahooo, they were forgiven for it".

Don't be ridiculous.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-05-2015, 02:18 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 01:39 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Scapegoating, by definition, requires an innocent victim. Human sacrifice in general does not.

You stated this a few times, but refused to answer the clarifying questions.

Are you claiming that those doing the scapegoating are required to consciously select innocent victims? And as a result the innocence of the victim is acknowledged by those committing the act?
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18-05-2015, 02:41 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 02:47 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 01:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The sacrifice was arranged by their god. It's really not ANY kind of scapegoating.

That's if you ignore all the bits in the story about the temple authorities conspiring against him, accusing him of a variety of transgressions, though he was innocent, and hung up on a tree as a result. Or all the bits of the story where Jesus is a classic lynch mob victim.

I mean according to your suggestion, they might as well just have done without these extemporaneous dramatics, and his followers could have just took him on top of a hill, and burnt him to death or something.

On one end I have you telling me, "It's really not ANY kind of scapegoating.", on the other end I have Grasshopper telling, that it's a classic example of a scapegoat:
(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is.

Make up your minds.
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18-05-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 01:39 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Scapegoating, by definition, requires an innocent victim. Human sacrifice in general does not.

You stated this a few times, but refused to answer the clarifying questions.

Are you claiming that those doing the scapegoating are required to consciously select innocent victims? And as a result the innocence of the victim is acknowledged by those committing the act?

Yes, but they don't have to explicitly state that or write about it, which is what you seem to be requiring. It's implicit in the definition. To continue my earlier analogy, if I tell you that I read a Calculus book, I don't have to add that there were lots of equations in it. And if I failed to add that, it wouldn't justify you making a general claim that Calculus books don't contain equations.
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18-05-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 02:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 01:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The sacrifice was arranged by their god. It's really not ANY kind of scapegoating.

That's if you ignore all the bits in the story about the temple authorities conspiring against him, accusing of him of a variety of transgressions, though he was innocent, and hung up on a tree as a result. Or all the bits of the story where Jesus is a classic lynch mob victim.

I mean according to your suggestion, they might as well just have done without these extemporaneous dramatics, and his followers could have just took up on a hill, and burnt him to death or something.

Well they made it all up anyway. I mean in one passion he is said to be "silent". In one he gives a long speech. So NOW you're saying that the temple authorities had good reason (in their eyes) to get rid of him. That's just a common crook. That's not even a scapegoat. And according to the gospels he did merit death. He trashed the money-changers tables. That was an essintial ritual part of the temple system in a city built entirely on a temple/sacrifice economy. Jews could not ritually use Roman currency to pay for temple services and sacrifices. He was a threat to civil order, and deserved to die. He was no scapegoat. Just a common crook who deserved what he got. HE was guilty, and not at all innocent. Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

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18-05-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 02:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Well they made it all up anyway. I mean in one passion he is said to be "silent". In one he gives a long speech. So NOW you're saying that the temple authorities had good reason (in their eyes) to get rid of him.

Yea, just like every lynch mob had a good reason (in their eyes) to kill their victims, for whistling at white women etc...

Quote:He was no scapegoat. Just a common crook who deserved what he got. HE was guilty, and not at all innocent. Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

In the Gospels he is a scapegoat, he is innocent. Something the writers have acknowledged even by Judas and the Romans :

Matthew 27:4: ‘I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.’

Matthew 27:19 While he was sitting on the judgement seat, his wife sent word to him, ‘Have nothing to do with that innocent man, for today I have suffered a great deal because of a dream about him.’

Luke 23:47: When the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God and said, ‘Certainly this man was innocent.’

You may disagree with them of course, and side with those who murdered him, and believe that he was not innocent, that he was deserving of his fate, but that's you, not the Gospel writers.
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