Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
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18-05-2015, 03:15 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
So... now you're arguing that Jesus being innocent *was* part of the essential makeup of the sacrifice - after all it would mean nothing to sacrifice a heathen steeped in sin. Which is *precisely* why in the practice of scapegoating a small *innocent* child is used. The scapegoating custom of sacrifice definitely existed before Jesus according to your own wretched book. Ergo not novel.

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18-05-2015, 03:23 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 03:27 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 02:47 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You stated this a few times, but refused to answer the clarifying questions.

Are you claiming that those doing the scapegoating are required to consciously select innocent victims? And as a result the innocence of the victim is acknowledged by those committing the act?

Yes, but they don't have to explicitly state that or write about it, which is what you seem to be requiring. It's implicit in the definition. To continue my earlier analogy, if I tell you that I read a Calculus book, I don't have to add that there were lots of equations in it. And if I failed to add that, it wouldn't justify you making a general claim that Calculus books don't contain equations.

That's because we're already familiar with Calculus books, and know that they contain a bunch of equations. If Calculus books tended to not have equations, than we wouldn't assume there were equations in the book you were reading. The notion that those doing the scapegoating were consciously selecting innocent victims, or even recognized the victims innocence is not in any of the scapegoat mythologies. Except of course in the Gospels.

In fact when we extend the term scapegoating to it's modern usage, the one doing the scapegoating does not recognize the innocence of the victim. The victim is selected, primarily because they make easy victims of violence and anger. In fact it's only those outside the act of scapegoating, those sympathetic to the victim that recognize his innocence.
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18-05-2015, 03:41 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 02:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 01:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The sacrifice was arranged by their god. It's really not ANY kind of scapegoating.

That's if you ignore all the bits in the story about the temple authorities conspiring against him, accusing him of a variety of transgressions, though he was innocent, and hung up on a tree as a result. Or all the bits of the story where Jesus is a classic lynch mob victim.

I mean according to your suggestion, they might as well just have done without these extemporaneous dramatics, and his followers could have just took him on top of a hill, and burnt him to death or something.

On one end I have you telling me, "It's really not ANY kind of scapegoating.", on the other end I have Grasshopper telling, that it's a classic example of a scapegoat:
(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is.

Make up your minds.

One problem here is that we literally don't know what we're talking about. I think Bucky and I would probably agree that Jesus, if he existed at all, was not the "Son of God", and that God almost certainly does not exist. But did Jesus exist as a real historical figure? Was he really crucified? Did he ever claim to be dying "for our sins", or was that something the church made up centuries later? Maybe the church (or Paul, or the Romans) invented him altogether. Maybe they embellished the story of an actual person to the point where it no longer resembles reality. Nobody really knows the answer to those questions, and Bucky and I may differ in our opinions.

I think Bucky was talking, for the sake of argument, from the standpoint of the whole story being literally true: If God really did send his son down to intentionally die for our sins, that's "not really scapegoating" because it was God's choice rather than ours. I'm not sure that actually matters, though. The basic concept is that someone else suffers for our guilt, and Christianity certainly makes that claim about Jesus.

Anyway, we can certainly disagree with you without necessarily agreeing with each other. That's what makes this place so much fun.
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18-05-2015, 03:50 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 04:08 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 03:15 PM)morondog Wrote:  So... now you're arguing that Jesus being innocent *was* part of the essential makeup of the sacrifice - after all it would mean nothing to sacrifice a heathen steeped in sin. Which is *precisely* why in the practice of scapegoating a small *innocent* child is used. The scapegoating custom of sacrifice definitely existed before Jesus according to your own wretched book. Ergo not novel.

Jesus innocence is a part of essential makeup of the story, to make it clear that he was the victim. To reveal the wrong inflicted upon him. Judas committed suicide in the narratives, because he recognized that he betrayed innocent blood. Pilate has to wash his hands clean of the act, because he himself recognizes his innocences. His wife has to warn him to stay clear of the innocent man.

His innocence is essential to the story not because it is traditional scapegoating mythology, but an anti-scapegoating mythology. It's an inversion of those traditional mythologies. Where God is not the supreme being of the violent mob, but the one whose allegiance is with the victims. It's the traditional myth, turned inside out.
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18-05-2015, 04:03 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 03:41 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I think Bucky was talking, for the sake of argument, from the standpoint of the whole story being literally true: If God really did send his son down to intentionally die for our sins, that's "not really scapegoating" because it was God's choice rather than ours. I'm not sure that actually matters, though. The basic concept is that someone else suffers for our guilt, and Christianity certainly makes that claim about Jesus.

Anyway, we can certainly disagree with you without necessarily agreeing with each other. That's what makes this place so much fun.

I'm talking from the standpoint of the story itself, which has both a human dimension, and sacred dimension. I'm not talking in regards to any particularly christian theology, or atonement theory, or even history, just the story, and primarily about the human dimensions here, in which an innocent man is murdered by a lynch mob.

In Bucky's view all these elements are not to be factored here, that these aspects of the story are irrelevant events. That they could just have been cut out all together, and we could just have a story in which the disciples took Jesus up a hill and had him tied up and burned as they do animal sacrifices. But that wouldn't be a very faithful reading.

His reading seems more dependent on some butchered understanding of christian theology, than the Gospels narratives themselves.
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18-05-2015, 04:18 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 04:24 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 03:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Jesus innocence is a part of essential makeup of the story, to make it clear that he was the victim. To reveal the wrong inflicted upon him. Judas committed suicide in the narratives, because he recognized that he betrayed innocent blood. Pilate has to wash his hands clean of the act, because he himself recognizes his innocences. His wife has to warn him to stay clear of the innocent man.

His innocence is essential to the story not because it is traditional scapegoating mythology, but an anti-scapegoating mythology. It's an inversion of those traditional mythologies. Where God is not the supreme being of the violent mob, but the one whose allegiance is with the victims. It's the traditional myth, turned inside out.

Yeah that. Or maybe Jesus was just another pussy and all the narratory about him since is to cover up that he was just another pussy.

#sigh
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18-05-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 04:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 03:41 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I think Bucky was talking, for the sake of argument, from the standpoint of the whole story being literally true: If God really did send his son down to intentionally die for our sins, that's "not really scapegoating" because it was God's choice rather than ours. I'm not sure that actually matters, though. The basic concept is that someone else suffers for our guilt, and Christianity certainly makes that claim about Jesus.

Anyway, we can certainly disagree with you without necessarily agreeing with each other. That's what makes this place so much fun.

I'm talking from the standpoint of the story itself, which has both a human dimension, and sacred dimension. I'm not talking in regards to any particularly christian theology, or atonement theory, or even history, just the story, and primarily about the human dimensions here, in which an innocent man is murdered by a lynch mob.

In Bucky's view all these elements are not to be factored here, that these aspects of the story are irrelevant events. That they could just have been cut out all together, and we could just have a story in which the disciples took Jesus up a hill and had him tied up and burned as they do animal sacrifices. But that wouldn't be a very faithful reading.

His reading seems more dependent on some butchered understanding of christian theology, than the Gospels narratives themselves.

I'm willing to bet that Bucky and I would agree on this: that the Gospels are unreliable. And I would add that "Christian theology" depends at least as much on Paul as on anything in the Gospels. I might even claim that Jesus and Paul were preaching two different religions. Maybe a "butchered understanding" of Christian theology is the only possible understanding.
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18-05-2015, 04:30 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 04:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah that. Or maybe Jesus was just another pussy and all the narratory about him since is to cover up that he was just another pussy.

"I told the priest
Don't count on any second coming
God got his ass kicked the first time
He came down here slumming.
He had the balls to come
The gall to die and then forgive us
No I don't wonder why I wonder what
He thought it would get us"

-Concrete Blonde
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18-05-2015, 04:40 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 04:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah that. Or maybe Jesus was just another pussy atheist and all the narratory about him since is to cover up that he was just another pussy atheist.

One thing is certain ... this story has always been about interpretation. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-05-2015, 04:40 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 04:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 04:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah that. Or maybe Jesus was just another pussy and all the narratory about him since is to cover up that he was just another pussy.

"I told the priest
Don't count on any second coming
God got his ass kicked the first time
He came down here slumming.
He had the balls to come
The gall to die and then forgive us
No I don't wonder why I wonder what
He thought it would get us"

-Concrete Blonde

Great song, but this is backwards. Isn't Girly supposed to do the song references?

Big Grin
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