Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
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18-05-2015, 04:40 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 04:25 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm willing to bet that Bucky and I would agree on this: that the Gospels are unreliable.

Not as stories. Whether you think they are reliable or not outside of this, as history, etc.. is all beside the point.

Quote:And I would add that "Christian theology" depends at least as much on Paul as on anything in the Gospels.

We're just talking about the Gospels, not the Epistles. In fact we're not even talking about theology. We're just talking about the Gospel story in comparison to other mythological stories, pagan stories about human sacrifices.

Quote:I might even claim that Jesus and Paul were preaching two different religions. .

Well, I'm not sure how a person could claim they preached different religions, or that Paul and the Gospels convey entirely different messages, without recognizing or knowing what those messages were about. But either way, it's perhaps best to limit ourselves to the Gospel stories, than anything you believe Paul may have to say here, particularly when you see them as conveying very different things.
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18-05-2015, 04:49 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 04:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 04:25 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm willing to bet that Bucky and I would agree on this: that the Gospels are unreliable.

Not as stories. Whether you think they are reliable or not outside of this, as history, etc.. is all beside the point.

Quote:And I would add that "Christian theology" depends at least as much on Paul as on anything in the Gospels.

We're just talking about the Gospels, not the Epistles. In fact we're not even talking about theology. We're just talking about the Gospel story in comparison to other mythological stories, pagan stories about human sacrifices.

Quote:I might even claim that Jesus and Paul were preaching two different religions. .

Well, I'm not sure how a person could claim they preached different religions, or that Paul and the Gospels convey entirely different messages, without recognizing or knowing what those messages were about. But either way, it's perhaps best to limit ourselves to the Gospel stories, than anything you believe Paul may have to say here, particularly when you see them as conveying very different things.

I'm not convinced that the Gospels have much to say about Jesus as scapegoat. They talk about him dying and being resurrected, but I don't remember much about our salvation depending on his death. I think most of that comes from Paul, and maybe a little from the Gospel of John, which is quite different from the other three Gospels, and was written later than any of them. The three synoptic gospels are mostly concerned with what Jesus did and said and what happened to him, and not so much with any deeper meaning.

However, I'm willing to be proven wrong. Other people here are probably more familiar with the Gospels than I am. I read them all a few years ago, and have heard parts of them read "in church" many times. But most of what I remember about Jesus dying "for our sins" comes from John and Paul, not from the synoptics.
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18-05-2015, 04:53 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 04:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 04:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah that. Or maybe Jesus was just another pussy and all the narratory about him since is to cover up that he was just another pussy.

"I told the priest
Don't count on any second coming
God got his ass kicked the first time
He came down here slumming.
He had the balls to come
The gall to die and then forgive us
No I don't wonder why I wonder what
He thought it would get us"

-Concrete Blonde





I tell you this. No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn.




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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18-05-2015, 05:12 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 04:40 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Great song, but this is backwards. Isn't Girly supposed to do the song references?

Nope. I just can't help myself but ground them. All is right with the world.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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18-05-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 03:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 02:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Well they made it all up anyway. I mean in one passion he is said to be "silent". In one he gives a long speech. So NOW you're saying that the temple authorities had good reason (in their eyes) to get rid of him.

Yea, just like every lynch mob had a good reason (in their eyes) to kill their victims, for whistling at white women etc...

Quote:He was no scapegoat. Just a common crook who deserved what he got. HE was guilty, and not at all innocent. Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

In the Gospels he is a scapegoat, he is innocent. Something the writers have acknowledged even by Judas and the Romans :

Matthew 27:4: ‘I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.’

Matthew 27:19 While he was sitting on the judgement seat, his wife sent word to him, ‘Have nothing to do with that innocent man, for today I have suffered a great deal because of a dream about him.’

Luke 23:47: When the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God and said, ‘Certainly this man was innocent.’

You may disagree with them of course, and side with those who murdered him, and believe that he was not innocent, that he was deserving of his fate, but that's you, not the Gospel writers.

Who gives a shit about gospel writes who intentionally cooked up shit and changed history (John and the day of crucifixion) ? Of course they had to claim he was innocent. In fact, if he existed he was a criminal and deserved his fate.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-05-2015, 06:22 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 04:49 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm not convinced that the Gospels have much to say about Jesus as scapegoat.

Aren't you contradicting yourself:

(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is.

How do you reconcile this? Are you suggesting he's a classic example of a scapegoat in Paul's writing,(and perhaps John) but in the three Gospels?

If so, what in particular makes some of these writings classic examples of scapegoating, that is absent in the other 3 Gospels?

Are you also claiming that Gospels do not follow the model of other scapegoat mythologies, mythologies of human sacrifices? I mean folks who argue for a non-existent Jesus, that the similarities are strong enough to suggest that Gospels copied these narratives a great deal?

But you don't see that at all?
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18-05-2015, 06:25 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 05:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Of course they had to claim he was innocent. In fact, if he existed he was a criminal and deserved his fate.

Why would they have to claim he was innocent? What does declaring his innocence do here, if not put the blame and culpability on those who conspired to kill him?
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18-05-2015, 07:49 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(15-05-2015 07:51 AM)morondog Wrote:  The whole "You are guilty by default and need salvation" thing... I mean, maybe not original (I wouldn't know) but the Christians are the only major world religion who push that idea as a fundamental concept that I know of?

In Islam, Judaism etc AFAICT the model is more "if you manage to follow all the rules then you win pie" whereas in Christianity it's "NOBODY deserves pie BUT if you sign up to our wierd cult then Jesus paid for you to get pie."
I think this IS fairly unique to the Abrahamic religions / "religions of the Book" -- if not to Christianity specifically. In effect it's an attempt to fix the human condition in one go. The concept of original sin / utter depravity puts the locus of human angst / discontent / suffering in the physical body specifically ("lusts of the flesh") and in the material world generally ("wordliness"). Then it peddles a spiritualized remedy that emanates from beyond the physical. It also supports the invented notion of a soul -- that we are not permanently tethered to our physical body. Which leads to the notion of a highly idealized afterlife.

I have always regarded Christianity's strength as not so much that its beliefs are that unique but that the composition and relationships of the beliefs -- the whole system of memes -- is so powerful and mutually reinforcing.
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18-05-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 06:25 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 05:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Of course they had to claim he was innocent. In fact, if he existed he was a criminal and deserved his fate.

Why would they have to claim he was innocent? What does declaring his innocence do here, if not put the blame and culpability on those who conspired to kill him?

Do you have a book of inane stupid questions, or do you actually think them up ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-05-2015, 11:32 PM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 07:49 PM)mordant Wrote:  I have always regarded Christianity's strength as not so much that its beliefs are that unique but that the composition and relationships of the beliefs -- the whole system of memes -- is so powerful and mutually reinforcing.

Yeah. All religions are like that though. Christians are the only ones to make a virtue outta being whiny too Consider Can see why that'd have wide appeal Dodgy

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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