Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
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19-05-2015, 12:46 AM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2015 05:59 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 06:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 04:49 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm not convinced that the Gospels have much to say about Jesus as scapegoat.

Aren't you contradicting yourself:

(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is.

How do you reconcile this? Are you suggesting he's a classic example of a scapegoat in Paul's writing,(and perhaps John) but in the three Gospels?

If so, what in particular makes some of these writings classic examples of scapegoating, that is absent in the other 3 Gospels?

Are you also claiming that Gospels do not follow the model of other scapegoat mythologies, mythologies of human sacrifices? I mean folks who argue for a non-existent Jesus, that the similarities are strong enough to suggest that Gospels copied these narratives a great deal?

But you don't see that at all?

Jesus is an allegorical take on the Passover lamb, and is a continuation of the scapegoating practiced by the Hebrew long before Christianity co-opted the idea.

You take two goats, and you drive one into the desert to die of starvation for the wrongs of the village, that is the scapegoat. It's a sick ideology, that not only can moral debt and responsibility be a transferable commodity, but that forgiveness can be had by sacrificing others in your name. It's an immoral and selfish theology.

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19-05-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(19-05-2015 12:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Jesus is an allegorical take on the Passover lamb, and is a continuation of the scapegoating practiced by the Hebrew long before Christianity co-opted the idea.

(18-05-2015 04:49 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm not convinced that the Gospels have much to say about Jesus as scapegoat.

(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is.

(18-05-2015 02:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  He was no scapegoat.

(18-05-2015 01:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's really not ANY kind of scapegoating.

You folks really need to make up your mind.

Quote:It's a sick ideology, that not only can moral debt and responsibility be a transferable commodity.

How does one repay a moral debt? Have you ever been in moral debt? In reality that sense on debt a person who commits something immoral, just piles on and piles on. The person tends to run up their allegorical debts, and find themselves in a hole, unable to get out of.

Often times they deny responsibility, or claim that they have done no wrong. They neither seek to reconcile the wrong, or be reconciled with the victim of their transgression. Their guilt often eats away at them, often turning to resentment.

But I'm curious to hear how you see "moral debt" in contrast to this?
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19-05-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(18-05-2015 06:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 04:49 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm not convinced that the Gospels have much to say about Jesus as scapegoat.

Aren't you contradicting yourself:

(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is.

How do you reconcile this? Are you suggesting he's a classic example of a scapegoat in Paul's writing,(and perhaps John) but in the three Gospels?

If so, what in particular makes some of these writings classic examples of scapegoating, that is absent in the other 3 Gospels?

Are you also claiming that Gospels do not follow the model of other scapegoat mythologies, mythologies of human sacrifices? I mean folks who argue for a non-existent Jesus, that the similarities are strong enough to suggest that Gospels copied these narratives a great deal?

But you don't see that at all?

I don't think I'm contradicting myself. Different points are being made in different posts. Jesus as portrayed by Christian theology is a classic example of a scapegoat. Christian theology is a hodgepodge of things from multiple sources. It takes as much or more from Paul as it does from Jesus. I claim that the concept of Jesus as scapegoat was largely invented by Paul. There is very little of it in the Gospels.

However, the scapegoat concept in general, and in particular, the requirement that the victim be innocent (which is where this whole discussion began) is not original with Christian theology or unique to it. It's all over the Old Testament. Check out the requirements for "sin offerings" in the early chapters of Leviticus (chap. 4-6). It states repeatedly that the animal to be sacrificed must be without blemish (or without defect, depending on the translation). Also check out the "suffering servant" stuff in Isaiah (primarily chapter 53). It clearly states that the "suffering servant" pays for the sins of the community without being guilty of those sins.

All of this predates Jesus by centuries. It is Jewish, not Christian. The Christians appropriated much of this stuff, but they didn't invent it.

As for my latest claim (the one you're responding to), I'm not saying Jesus wasn't a scapegoat -- just that you would be hard-pressed to find that in the Gospels. It was layered on later by Paul and the early church when they built a religion around Jesus.
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19-05-2015, 08:45 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
Anyway, even if it is unique then what you're sayin', Tommy my love, is that your tyrant deity, for trivial infringements against a draconian and impractical set of instructions, must be appeased by blood - any blood. Hardly a loving God. Hardly a thing to be proud of.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-05-2015, 09:01 AM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2015 09:21 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(19-05-2015 07:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 12:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Jesus is an allegorical take on the Passover lamb, and is a continuation of the scapegoating practiced by the Hebrew long before Christianity co-opted the idea.

(18-05-2015 04:49 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm not convinced that the Gospels have much to say about Jesus as scapegoat.

(18-05-2015 01:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Jesus was a classic example of what a scapegoat is.

(18-05-2015 02:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  He was no scapegoat.

(18-05-2015 01:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's really not ANY kind of scapegoating.

You folks really need to make up your mind.

Quote:It's a sick ideology, that not only can moral debt and responsibility be a transferable commodity.

How does one repay a moral debt? Have you ever been in moral debt? In reality that sense on debt a person who commits something immoral, just piles on and piles on. The person tends to run up their allegorical debts, and find themselves in a hole, unable to get out of.

Often times they deny responsibility, or claim that they have done no wrong. They neither seek to reconcile the wrong, or be reconciled with the victim of their transgression. Their guilt often eats away at them, often turning to resentment.

But I'm curious to hear how you see "moral debt" in contrast to this?

You see, Tommy-shit-for-brains, it's not a vast conspiracy, and we don't have to agree on anything. Tongue

The only real question remaining on TTA for you is : "How does it feel to be in *spelling debt* over your head, and who shall be the scapegoat for your atrocious grammar ? Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-05-2015, 09:08 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(19-05-2015 09:01 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The only real question remaining on TTA for you is : "How does it feel to be in *spelling debt* over your head, and who shall be the scapegoat for your atrocious grammar ? Facepalm

Yes, my spelling needs no scapegoat. I take full responsibility for it, and I can't seem to help it, without devoting a considerable more time than needed. I apologize for my grammatical transgression, but they'll likely just continue.
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19-05-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(19-05-2015 09:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 09:01 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The only real question remaining on TTA for you is : "How does it feel to be in *spelling debt* over your head, and who shall be the scapegoat for your atrocious grammar ? Facepalm

Yes, my spelling needs no scapegoat. I take full responsibility for it, and I can't seem to help it, without devoting a considerable more time than needed. I apologize for my grammatical transgression, but they'll likely just continue.

I do have my Jebus glow-in-the-dark-flashlight in my backpack.
Everyone needs a handy dandy savior now and then.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-05-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(19-05-2015 08:45 AM)morondog Wrote:  Anyway, even if it is unique then what you're sayin', Tommy my love, is that your tyrant deity, for trivial infringements against a draconian and impractical set of instructions, must be appeased by blood - any blood. Hardly a loving God. Hardly a thing to be proud of.

I don't think that this is the case, perhaps in some penal substitution view of atonement, but perhaps not even there. If God were appeased by blood, why would it would matter what people believed? Why would the Gospels place such an emphasis on one's heart?

If Jesus death, and life, concepts such as forgiveness, and repentance, love, has some interwoven relationship, what is the relationship here? If the Jesus of the Gospels declares that the path to eternal life lies in a love of God and others, what does his death have to do with this?

You can't pick just one aspect of the story, and ignore every other aspects, if your going to claim it means this or that. You have to account for the entirety of it, in one way or the other. One in which the questions are not answered, is likely to not be a very accurate reading.
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19-05-2015, 09:56 AM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2015 10:22 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(19-05-2015 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 08:45 AM)morondog Wrote:  Anyway, even if it is unique then what you're sayin', Tommy my love, is that your tyrant deity, for trivial infringements against a draconian and impractical set of instructions, must be appeased by blood - any blood. Hardly a loving God. Hardly a thing to be proud of.

I don't think that this is the case, perhaps in some penal substitution view of atonement, but perhaps not even there. If God were appeased by blood, why would it would matter what people believed? Why would the Gospels place such an emphasis on one's heart?

If Jesus death, and life, concepts such as forgiveness, and repentance, love, has some interwoven relationship, what is the relationship here? If the Jesus of the Gospels declares that the path to eternal life lies in a love of God and others, what does his death have to do with this?

You can't pick just one aspect of the story, and ignore every other aspects, if your going to claim it means this or that. You have to account for the entirety of it, in one way or the other. One in which the questions are not answered, is likely to not be a very accurate reading.

Oh FFS, we all know, no matter what anyone said about it, you would cook up more inane questions to ask about it. Why are you even discussing this shit here ?

(Jebus forgives you for the errors in your post. Weeping )

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-05-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: Are there any novel concepts uniquely attributable to Christianity?
(19-05-2015 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 08:45 AM)morondog Wrote:  Anyway, even if it is unique then what you're sayin', Tommy my love, is that your tyrant deity, for trivial infringements against a draconian and impractical set of instructions, must be appeased by blood - any blood. Hardly a loving God. Hardly a thing to be proud of.

I don't think that this is the case, perhaps in some penal substitution view of atonement, but perhaps not even there. If God were appeased by blood, why would it would matter what people believed? Why would the Gospels place such an emphasis on one's heart?

If Jesus death, and life, concepts such as forgiveness, and repentance, love, has some interwoven relationship, what is the relationship here? If the Jesus of the Gospels declares that the path to eternal life lies in a love of God and others, what does his death have to do with this?

You can't pick just one aspect of the story, and ignore every other aspects, if your going to claim it means this or that. You have to account for the entirety of it, in one way or the other. One in which the questions are not answered, is likely to not be a very accurate reading.

You're a disingenuous fucker Tommy Thumbsup

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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